Chosen Childlessness

[Gold Dragon]

I am having difficulty with the "children are a blessing" reasoning. Why does the fact that children are a blessing from God make chosen childlessness wrong in any way?

Monetary riches can also be a blessing from God. Does that make voluntary poverty a sin?

Wine is mentioned many times in the OT as being a blessing from God. Does that make alcoholic abstinence a sin?

 

[Helen]

The Bible mentions a number of times that children are a blessing. It never says that about money, however!

To take steps to prevent having children, if you are a Christian (or, I suppose, even if you are not...) is telling God you don't want any of those blessings He might have in mind for you; that you don't trust Him to know what is best for you; and that "my will, not Thine, be done."

Is that a sin?

 

[Hope of Glory]

if a couple can't have children, and seeks numerous surgical methods to get pregnant, they're they're taking control out of hte Lord's hands.

If you have diabetes and you take insulin, you are taking control out of the Lord's hands.

If you have a heart attack and go to the doctor, you are taking control out of the Lord's hands.

If you get cancer and seek treatment, you are taking control out of the Lord's hands.

If you get in your car and drive with your eyes open, you are taking control out of the Lord's hands.

God gave us brains, God gave us abilities, God gave us to be good stewards.

Every time you take any action, you could potentially be taking control out of the Lord's hands. On the other hand, taking action just might be the Lord's plan for you.

 

[Helen]

We are TOLD to seek medication (oil) and prayer when sick.

We are TOLD that some are given the gift of healing for the sake of the Body of Christ.

Your post is past ridiculous, in other words.

Let me know when ill health, crashing, etc. are listed as blessings in the Bible. It must be something I haven't read yet...

 

[Hope of Glory]

Your post is past ridiculous, in other words.

As is the idea that preventing pregnancy is a sin according to the Bible.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Artimaeus:

"Choosing to not have children is not a sin."

What did you base this upon?

1. The Bible does not say that it is a sin.
2. The Holy Spirit has never convicted me.
3. God blesses marriage but chosing not to get married is not a sin.
4. God blesses many, many good things that we do. As a matter of fact He blesses all GOOD things we do (if according to His will). If God will bless 10,000 good things that I could possibly do, does that mean that if I choose to not do one of those 10,000 things that it is a sin? No, there is not time to do all of the things that are possible to do, therefore, you must choose to not do some things that would otherwise be blessed.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Just as we are told to seek medical care, we are told to be good stewards of the planet.

So, using your logic on treating diabetes, extrapolate.

 

[Hope of Glory]

BTW, I'm not trying to say that having a whole bunch of kids is a sin. I'm trying to say that having few, one, or even zero, intentionally, is also not a sin, based on Scriptures.

 

[Helen]

The oldest method of birth control was 'spilling seed on the ground.' This was considered such a sin that in the one instance spoken of in the Bible, God killed the man. Gen. 38:9-10

What some of you are saying, in effect, over and over again, is that you don't trust God to know what is best for you where your life is concerned.

This has NOTHING to do with seeking medical treatment for illnesses, by the way, so quit trying to confuse the issue!

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Helen, wasn't Onan commanded to impregnate the woman ? His sin wasn't in the withdrawl it'self, his sin was disobediance. That's the way I understood it.

Genesis 38....

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

Not trying to insult, or be personal, but I believe your interpretation seems to be from the RCC camp.

 

[chipsgirl]

I have been reading through the posts on this thread and many of you raise some good points.

For me, when I get married I will not prevent having children. I leave it up to God. He won't ever give me more in life than I can handle. I have total faith in that.

 

[KeeperOfMyHome]

Hope of Glory, hmmm . . . I am wondering if you are insinuating that because I have five children, I am not being a good steward of the earth? At any rate, I don't remember a verse commanding us to be good stewards of the earth. However, the verses I recall do tell us to be fruitful, that God controls the womb and is responsible for making each child fearfully and wonderfully, and that children are a blessing as well as a heritage.

To be honest, having children is a natural result of marriage, unless the Lord closes the womb. I feel that if you don't want children then you should not marry.

Julia

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Helen, wasn't Onan commanded to impregnate the woman ? His sin wasn't in the withdrawl it'self, his sin was disobediance. That's the way I understood it.

Genesis 38....

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

Not trying to insult, or be personal, but I believe your interpretation seems to be from the RCC camp.

That's OK. I couldn't be further from the RCC camp! It was considered obligatory to raise up inheritors for the land belonging to the proper family and so the man was supposed to impregnate his dead brother's wife if there had been no children from the marriage. That part was old Israel.

The part about refusing to have children and thus taking steps to prevent it appears to have angered God Himself.

That is just from my own reading of Scripture and not from anything from any 'camp.'

As I have gotten older, and as I have read the Bible through a number of times now, and especially since I have been married to someone who follows the Lord so determinedly and closely and with such incredible trust, I have become more and more aware of how little I have trusted the Lord at times in my life. I have found myself apologizing to Him on numerous occasions and I am still learning to trust the way I know He wants us all to trust.

So what I am presenting is not out of my own 'perfection' which is so lacking it is almost ludicrous, but out of a constantly growing conviction that God truly is God and that He truly does love and care for each of us and that He truly does know what is best for each of us. Our brains were never created to challenge Him!

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And know that I have a huge amount of respect for you. I know your stance on the RCC, and agree with it. But this is the argument used by most RCCers I have talked to, to say any birth control is a sin. I believe it is a sin to end a pregnancy, but I'm not convinced that preventing a pregnancy is in the same boat.

 

[Andy T.]

Childlessness should be the exception (a very small minority) in Christian marriages. There are health reasons, etc. that can be valid reasons for childlessness.

But just "not wanting" children is not a valid reason. You don't need to be "led of God" to know if having children is good or not. I'm glad most people don't take that inane position, otherwise we would put ourselves right out of existence, which is slowly happening in the self-centered, secular wasteland that is Europe.

 

[rlvaughn]

I don't really have a fully developed theology in the area birth control (in all its permutations), and that is one reason I'm reading and posting on this thread and the other one. I must say that it has been enlightening, entertaining, and sometimes even dumbfounding. In considering the subject, here are some things I think about from the Bible.

Fruitfulness is a blessing, and evidently a command to Adam and Eve.

Gen 1:27,28 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen 9:1 - And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.

The Lord has ultimate power over the womb, both opening and shutting.

Gen 29:31 - And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. I Sam 1:5 - But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.

Children are an heritage (inheritance) and a reward from God.

Psalm 127:3-5 - Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Marrying and bearing children seems to be the normal and expected course for the average person.

I Tim 5:14 - I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. I Tim 5:10 - Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. Titus 2:4 - That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children. I Tim 3:2-4,12 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity...Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

There are exceptions to this. For a person to devote themselves to remain unmarried and childless to give themselves over to the Lord seems to above average, but certainly not a bad thing and is very acceptable to God.

Matt 19:12 - For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Compare I Corinthians 7:8, et al.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
Childlessness should be the exception (a very small minority) in Christian marriages. There are health reasons, etc. that can be valid reasons for childlessness.

My wife and I will not be having any children. I have three children from a previous marriage already.

I challenge anyone to demonstrate to me with scripture where I am subverting God's will.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy T.:
Childlessness should be the exception (a very small minority) in Christian marriages. There are health reasons, etc. that can be valid reasons for childlessness.

My wife and I will not be having any children. I have three children from a previous marriage already.

I challenge anyone to demonstrate to me with scripture where I am subverting God's will. </font>[/QUOTE]John, I don't care to know all the reasons you and your wife have for not having children - they very well might be valid. I don't want to turn this into a personal attack on anyone - that is not my intent.

I still maintain that it is the general command of God to be fruitful and multiply. Again, there are exceptions, but they should be in the small minority. And the exceptions should be based on good reasons - not just, "I don't want to have children." Like I said, I'm glad we don't all take that attitude, because we collectively would be disobeying God's general command to be fruitful and fill the earth.

By the way, I don't buy the argument that the "earth is already filled". Says who? Did God say that? No, I don't think He did. Therefore, the command to fill the earth still applies today as much as did in Adam's and Noah's day.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
John, I don't care to know all the reasons you and your wife have for not having children - they very well might be valid. I don't want to turn this into a personal attack on anyone - that is not my intent.

I don't mind sharing. I had a vasectomy after the birth of my last child many years ago, and see no practical, moral, or scriptural reason to have it reversed.

I still maintain that it is the general command of God to be fruitful and multiply.

That is a general command to a race of people, not to individuals as a one-on-one edict.

Like I said, I'm glad we don't all take that attitude, because we collectively would be disobeying God's general command to be fruitful and fill the earth.

Most don't have that attitide. Most want to have children as part of their life's desire.

By the way, I don't buy the argument that the "earth is already filled". Says who? Did God say that? No, I don't think He did.

While it's a valid point (which I personally disagree with), it still doesn't change the fact that the command of being fruitful and multiplying was not an edict to individuals. Further, there is no edict that instructs us on how many children to have, or when.

 

[Andy T.]

How can a command be to an entire race, but not to the individuals of that race? Your attitude implies that we can take it or leave it. So I guess you wouldn't mind if everyone decided that the earth is already filled and we all can stop having children?

My point is that just because the command is not intended to every single individual at all times, doesn't mean that it is just as good to not have kids as it is to have kids. The norm is to have kids, and the exceptions should be based on reasonable issues. Most people I've talked to about this don't have valid reasons - they basically don't want to be bothered. I'm just glad not everyone is like that.