Christ died for the dead in hell?

[Iconoclast]

As soon as you accept John 3:16 for what is says they automatically accuse you of being a universalist. When we rebut election with verses that state that it is not God's will that any perish but all come to repentance we are accused of being universalists. They just don't get it. They cannot take God at His Word, they just have to change meanings and add to scripture to make their beliefs fit.

Maybe if you read the whole verse in 2pet...you will.understand it correctly....God is very willing that many perish mt 7:21-24

 

[Van]

So you don't know if these people actually entered the kingdom or not yet you're building your whole doctrine upon it? Come on, Van, you must know! Did they enter or not? Please tell us! Pretty please!

LOL, yet another post addressing the poster and not the topic, and yet another dodge of my question. How could they be "entering the kingdom" if they suffered from total spiritual inability?

No answer will be forthcoming because the doctrine of total spiritual inability is as bogus as can be.

And also not folks, the falsehood that Matthew 23:13 is claimed to be the only scripture indicating total spiritual inability is false. One false claim after another.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

LOL, yet another post addressing the poster and not the topic, and yet another dodge of my question. How could they be "entering the kingdom" if they suffered from total spiritual inability?

I'm absolutely addressing the post. Before I answer I need to know whether these people entered or not. That is absolutely vital, and surely you must know or you wouldn't be so silly as to bring the matter up.

However, no answer will be forthcoming because the doctrine of spiritually dead people making themselves alive is as bogus as can be.

And also not folks [sic], the falsehood that Matthew 23:13 is claimed to be the only scripture indicating total spiritual inability is false. One false claim after another.

I fully agree that Matthew 23:13 is not the only doctrine indicating total spiritual inability. That's because it does nothing of the kind and nor does any other verse. But of course you don't know what the verse means because you can't tell us if the people described in it entered the kingdom or not!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Maybe if you read the whole verse in 2pet...you will.understand it correctly....God is very willing that many perish mt 7:21-24

Perhaps you can explain, because neither Matthew 7:21-24 nor the whole chapter of 2 Peter 3 even hint that God is "very willing" for anyone to perish. But 2 Peter 3 does have verse 16 and I think that is what is your problem.. 2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Reformed]

Allow me to elaborate a bit.

I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, I am a Biblicist. I don't follow any man, nor do I attach my faith to the name of a man, nor do I refer to my salvation in the terms associated with any man.

I accept, for the most part, the canons of the Synod of Dort, which reflect Biblical Soteriology. To say I must reject the bible (I.E., "biblicist") and accept the philosophy of man (I.E., "Calvinist" or "Arminian") is to deny the Bible, the Saviour of the Bible, and the God of the Bible.

I am not a "Calvinist" because Calvin was a baby sprinkling heretic who taught that the ordinances (he called them "sacraments") were a "means of grace." He may have come out of his apostate Roman Catholic Church but he brought too much of the furniture with him.

I have to admit it bothers me when a Baptist calls himself a "Calvinist." Calvin wrote that "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." *

No thanks. I will not side with a man who believes the ordinances are a "means of grace," that Baptists are "monsters" and worthy of death, that sprinkled babies, hated the biblical doctrine of separation of church and state, and had his so-called "church" rule over Geneva to the point that in comparison the Taliban looks moderate!

(*John Calvin Letter to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561.)

Tom, do not hold back. Tell me how you really feel.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Jerome]

They just don't get it. They cannot take God at His Word, they just have to change meanings and add to scripture to make their beliefs fit.

Reproof for such wresting of Scripture:

Regarding 1 Tim. 2:4's "Who will have all men to be saved":

"Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears?...You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. 'All men,' say they, —'that is, some men': as if the Holy Ghost could not have said 'some men' if he had meant some men. 'All men,' say they; 'that is, some of all sorts of men': as if the Lord could not have said 'all sorts of men' if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written 'all men' and unquestionably he means all men."

"I know how to get rid of the force of the 'alls' according to that critical method which, some time ago, was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away....it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, 'Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth.' Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place."

"My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater....I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the Word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, 'God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth'."


And they recoil at that. One poster here even dismissed it as Spurgeon's "worst sermon on record" (Rippon).

 

[Iconoclast]

="SheepWhisperer,
]Perhaps you can explain, because neither Matthew 7:21-24 nor the whole chapter of 2 Peter 3 even hint that God is "very willing" for anyone to perish. But 2 Peter 3 does have verse 16 and I think that is what is your problem.. 2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[]
Yes I can explain. Do you remember when Satan only quoted half of the verse as recorded in Luke 4 9-11?
He left out the phrase ....in all the ways...changing or taking away the true meaning of God's word.......well you and others attempt the same thing here..leaving out the whole context, and the ...to usward...not one of these Peter speaks of will perish as it is the long suffering of God waiting for all the elect to be saved.Read the whole chapter...all of it...see what is actually being said.
Then take a look at mt7 where Jesus will tell multitudes depart from me ,I never knew you, and explain how He is going to go against His own will.
By the way....vs16 which you suggest might be my problem...seems to be your practice here and in other posts as you constantly ignore the biblical teaching of the Covenant nature of salvation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Regarding 1 Tim. 2:4's "Who will have all men to be saved":

This is very interesting. 'Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth' (Psalm 135:6), so if God wants all men without exception to be saved, saved they will be. We know that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23), but at the same time, 'the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God' (1 Cor. 6:9). There is an apparent paradox here which needs to be explored. Before I post any further, do you accept that there is such a paradox and are you interested in exploring it? I don't want to waste my time.

Slightly separate to that, here are three places in the N.T. where 'all' or 'everyone' does not mean 'every single one.'

Matthew 10:22. 'And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.' The 3,000 saved at Pentecost didn't hate the disciples.

Luke 16:16. 'The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached and everyone is pressing into it.' Not everyone was pressing into the kingdom in the Lord Jesus' time on earth, and certainly not everyone is pressing in now.

John 12:32. 'And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.' All people are not drawn to Christ. Do some door-to-door calling in Britain if you need to be convinced of that.'

There is no shortage of other examples. The meaning of 'all,' like any other word, is determined by the context and common sense.

 

[Jerome]

'Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth' (Psalm 135:6), so if God wants all men without exception to be saved, saved they will be. We know that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23), but at the same time, 'the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God' (1 Cor. 6:9). There is an apparent paradox here which needs to be explored.

Does it? Spurgeon went on, such wise counsel:

"Then comes the question, “But if He wishes it to be so, why does He not make it so? “Beloved friend, have you never heard that a fool may ask a question which a wise man cannot answer and if that is so, I am sure a wise person like yourself can ask me a great many questions which, fool as I am, I am yet not foolish enough to try to answer."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Does it?

Does what? Do you mean 'is there'?
BTW, I have great respect for Spurgeon, but at the end of the day he was just a man, and not beyond making mistakes.

 

[Jerome]

Does what? Do you mean 'is there'?

I meant exactly what I wrote.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I meant exactly what I wrote.

Well then, I can't answer the question because I don't know what it means. Perhaps you would explain further.

 

[Van]

I'm absolutely addressing the post. Before I answer I need to know whether these people entered or not. That is absolutely vital, and surely you must know or you wouldn't be so silly as to bring the matter up.

The verse is there for Martin to read rather than deny. There we entering so they had some spiritual ability. Surely Martin is not saying people can be "entering" without any spiritual ability. Your guess is as good as mine.

However, no answer will be forthcoming because the doctrine of spiritually dead people making themselves alive is as bogus as can be.

Note the complete fabrication, no one said the people of Matthew 23:13 were "making themselves alive!" Martin is pushing falsehood to hide falsehood.

Here is what I wrote, "And also note folks, the falsehood that Matthew 23:13 is claimed to be the only scripture indicating total spiritual inability is false.'
And here is how Martin rewrote it:

I fully agree that Matthew 23:13 is not the only doctrine indicating total spiritual inability.

Thus no effort is being made to reach understanding, but plenty of inventive effort is being poured into obfuscation.

 

[Van]

Christ died for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved. He is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (1 John 2:2).

What is rather surprising is you would get more things right. One out of five reflects amazingly shoddy bible study.
Why would they claim Christ did not die as a ransom for all, or that God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth? Truly mind boggling.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Jhn 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 1:21 KJV - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luk 1:68, 77 KJV - Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, ... 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Rom 15:10 KJV - 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Rev 21:3 KJV - 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

These verses lead me to conclude that God distinguishes His people from all of mankind by His actions of "drawing them". Christians, in this life, are to be separated (drawn apart) from the world's system of thought and living.

 

[Yeshua1]

The verse is there for Martin to read rather than deny. There we entering so they had some spiritual ability. Surely Martin is not saying people can be "entering" without any spiritual ability. Your guess is as good as mine.

Note the complete fabrication, no one said the people of Matthew 23:13 were "making themselves alive!" Martin is pushing falsehood to hide falsehood.

Here is what I wrote, "And also note folks, the falsehood that Matthew 23:13 is claimed to be the only scripture indicating total spiritual inability is false.'
And here is how Martin rewrote it:

Thus no effort is being made to reach understanding, but plenty of inventive effort is being poured into obfuscation.

No man receives the things of God unless/until the Holy Spirit allows him to do that!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jhn 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 1:21 KJV - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luk 1:68, 77 KJV - Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, ... 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Rom 15:10 KJV - 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Rev 21:3 KJV - 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

These verses lead me to conclude that God distinguishes His people from all of mankind by His actions of "drawing them". Christians, in this life, are to be separated (drawn apart) from the world's system of thought and living.

Very good, as that is indeed what the Bible teaches to us!

 

[Van]

No man receives the things of God unless/until the Holy Spirit allows him to do that!

Yet another false claim with no scripture to support. Pay no attention to this obfuscation.

Can the natural person receive spiritual milk? Yes 1 Corinthians 3:1.

 

[Van]

Jhn 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Mat 1:21 KJV - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luk 1:68, 77 KJV - Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, ... 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Rom 15:10 KJV - 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rev 21:3 KJV - 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
These verses lead me to conclude that God distinguishes His people from all of mankind by His actions of "drawing them". Christians, in this life, are to be separated (drawn apart) from the world's system of thought and living.

These verses do not lead me to conclude any such thing. Who are "His people?" All of mankind? Nope, not all are drawn, not all hear and learn from the Father. His people are those God transfers into Christ, when He credits their faith as righteousness. Thus we are chosen through faith in the truth. Mankind is referred to as "the sheep" and "His people" are referred to as "My sheep."

Christians, His People, His Sheep, are to be "in the world" but not "of the world."

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another false claim with no scripture to support. Pay no attention to this obfuscation.

Can the natural person receive spiritual milk? Yes 1 Corinthians 3:1.

The Holy Spirit ONLY illuminates the scriptures for the already saved, not the lost, as he must firct quicken them to have the means to receive eternal life in Christ!