Christ Is Not A Goat-Herder

[jdlongmire]

If Christ laid down His life "specifically for them (the sheep), how was this woman saved who clearly was NOT one of the "sheep"?

Mat 15:21 When Jesus left there, He withdrew to the area of Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came and kept crying out, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly tormented by a demon."
Mat 15:23 Yet He did not say a word to her. So His disciples approached Him and urged Him, "Send her away because she cries out after us."
Mat 15:24 He replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Mat 15:25 But she came, knelt before Him, and said, "Lord, help me!"
Mat 15:26 He answered, "It isn't right to take the children's bread and throw it to their dogs."
Mat 15:27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table!"
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus replied to her, "Woman, your faith is great. Let it be done for you as you want." And from that moment her daughter was cured.

And so a lost sheep was found.

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

 

[Rippon]

Jesus died so Goats can become Sheep.

I once was a Goat but now a Sheep!

Did you say those things to get my goat?

Show me anywhere in Scripture where goats become sheep.

 

[Rippon]

Don't you just love these kind of glitches?

 

[Rippon]

Sorry. Double post.

 

[webdog]

And so a lost sheep was found.

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

How can you say that when Jesus SPECIFICALLY stated He came for His sheep...which she clearly was NOT? Jesus states WHO the sheep are, and gentiles are NOT in that statement. You cannot pull a verse from Matthew to argue the "other sheep" are gentiles. Like Rippon stated about goats, a dog doesn't become a sheep. Show me Scripture where dogs become sheep.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jesus died so Goats can become Sheep.

I once was a Goat but now a Sheep!

Did you say those things to get my goat?

Show me anywhere in Scripture where goats become sheep.

Bad question

'Goats' are used of a figure of the unsaved.
'Sheep' are used of a figure of the saved.
Do you really want me to show you how to go from an unsaved state to a saved state? Here we go.

Of course, a strict Calvinist would think goats are goats from eternity past and sheep are sheep from eternity past. Both will be what they are for eternity future. But I'm not going to argue against Calvin cause I think he was and anti-semetic, racist & sexist individual.

 

[Rippon]

How can you say that when Jesus SPECIFICALLY stated He came for His sheep...which she clearly was NOT? Jesus states WHO the sheep are, and gentiles are NOT in that statement. You cannot pull a verse from Matthew to argue the "other sheep" are gentiles. Like Rippon stated about goats, a dog doesn't become a sheep.

The ministry of Jesus centered on the Jews. However he interacted savingly with a number of Gentiles. What you are trying to do is pit Scripture against Scripture. Matthew 15:24 needs to be seen in light of the passages of John 10 ( esp. verse 16 that JD pointed out).

This reminds me of non-Cals who only use John 12:32 for their understanding of drawing, but do not deal with the more expansive understanding in John 6.

 

[jdlongmire]

How can you say that when Jesus SPECIFICALLY stated He came for His sheep...which she clearly was NOT? Jesus states WHO the sheep are, and gentiles are NOT in that statement. You cannot pull a verse from Matthew to argue the "other sheep" are gentiles. Like Rippon stated about goats, a dog doesn't become a sheep. Show me Scripture where dogs become sheep.

you are kidding, right? This is a key text for the Gentile inclusion.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 10:16[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] And other sheep I have…
Not distinct from those for whom he laid down his life, but from those who were under the Old Testament dispensation, and who heard not the thieves and robbers that were before Christ, (John 10:8) ; others besides the lost sheep of the house of Israel, or the elect among the Jews, to whom Christ was sent; and by whom are meant the chosen of God among the Gentiles, who were sheep, though not called and folded, for the reasons given: (See Gill on John 10:3). These, though uncalled, belonged to Christ; he had an interest in them, they were given him by his Father; he had them in his hands, and upon his heart; his eye was upon them, and they were under his notice, inspection, and care: [/FONT][/FONT]

You need to be more careful about contextualizing sheep, goats and dogs - Christ was telling her she was not a dog - contrary to the contemporary culture.

 

[Rippon]

'Goats' are used as a figure of the unsaved.
'Sheep' are used as a figure of the saved.

Agreed.




Of course, a strict Calvinist would think goats are goats from eternity past and sheep are sheep from eternity past.

Rip :Goats will always be goats, and sheep will always be sheep.



But I'm not going to argue against Calvin cause I think he was and anti-semetic, racist & sexist individual.

What?! Where did this rant come from? I base my understanding of the sheep and goats on the Bible. I don't check with Calvin first.However, you have said some outrageous things about the man here, Ed. Start another thread if you wish about these issues you have.You're sounding like SP with those nonsensical statements.

 

[jdlongmire]

Bad question

'Goats' are used of a figure of the unsaved.
'Sheep' are used of a figure of the saved.
Do you really want me to show you how to go from an unsaved state to a saved state? Here we go.

Of course, a strict Calvinist would think goats are goats from eternity past and sheep are sheep from eternity past. Both will be what they are for eternity future.

I suppose tares can become wheat, as well?

But I'm not going to argue against Calvin cause I think he was and anti-semetic, racist & sexist individual.

Ah - the worst type of ad hominum - one where the accused cannot defend themselves - shameful.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I suppose tares can become wheat, as well?

You literalists :sigh: how do you ever understand the Bible?

The tare is a symbol of the unsaved. The Wheat is a symbol of the saved. Of course unsaved can be saved. Even saved is a symbol. The body of Christ is a symbol of the Universal Church; the Bride of Christ is a symbol of the Universal Church --- so 'The body of Christ' is the "Bride of Christ".

 

[webdog]

The ministry of Jesus centered on the Jews. However he interacted savingly with a number of Gentiles. What you are trying to do is pit Scripture against Scripture. Matthew 15:24 needs to be seen in light of the passages of John 10 ( esp. verse 16 that JD pointed out).

This reminds me of non-Cals who only use John 12:32 for their understanding of drawing, but do not deal with the more expansive understanding in John 6.

...or John 10 needs to be read in light of Matthew 15. Matthew tells us who the sheep are...John expands that there are others, but he does NOT state they are gentiles. That's eisegesis.

 

[Rippon]

Scripture From TNIV

...or John 10 needs to be read in light of Matthew 15. Matthew tells us who the sheep are...John expands that there are others, but he does NOT state they are gentiles. That's eisegesis.

So you believe that the elect,sheep,saints,Body and Bride of Christ,the beloved and many other designations in Scripture are not referencing the very same group of people?!

You really have to get things straight. In Matthew 25:32,33 : "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.He will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left."

There is no indication here that the Jews only are sheep, and that the Gentiles only are goats.

 

[jdlongmire]

...or John 10 needs to be read in light of Matthew 15. Matthew tells us who the sheep are...John expands that there are others, but he does NOT state they are gentiles. That's eisegesis.

webdog - you are moving into silliness, now. Please go read the true exegetes before you make yourself look more foolish.

16. And I have other sheep. Though some refer this indiscriminately to all, both Jews and Gentiles, who were not yet disciples of Christ, yet I have no doubt that he had in his eye the calling of the Gentiles. For he gives the appellation fold to the assemblage of the ancient people, by which they were separated from the other nations of the world, and united into one body as the heritage of God. The Jews had been adopted by God in such a manner, that he surrounded them with certain enclosures, which consisted of rites and ceremonies, that they might not be confounded with unbelievers, though the door of the fold was the gracious covenant of eternal life confirmed in Christ. For this reason he calls those sheep which had not the same mark, but belonged to a different class, other sheep. In short, the meaning is, that the pastoral office of Christ is not confined within the limits of Judea, but is far more extensive.

From here

 

[jdlongmire]

You literalists :sigh: how do you ever understand the Bible?

The tare is a symbol of the unsaved. The Wheat is a symbol of the saved. Of course unsaved can be saved. Even saved is a symbol. The body of Christ is a symbol of the Universal Church; the Bride of Christ is a symbol of the Universal Church --- so 'The body of Christ' is the "Bride of Christ".

uh-huh - the Scriptures have a different distinction - you really need to go read Mat 13 before you embarrass yourself some more. The wheat was planted by the sower - the tares sprung up among the wheat. Then harvest time came...

 

[psalms109:31]

Hello

Goats are leading poor sheep to destruction and Israel is the sheep who have gone astray. Gentiles are as the aliens living among the Jews who were included with them when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed and circumcised the males. The circumcision of today is that of the heart, that Jesus does when we turn to Him. As a gentile I was a dog begging at the master table and Jesus didn't turn me away.

We gentiles are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

We all have become one in Christ.

I do not pretend to be nobody. I'm still a dog begging at the masters table, waiting on my master return.

We are to love one another as Christ loved us and be one as Christ prayed us to be.

 

[Ed Edwards]

uh-huh - the Scriptures have a different distinction - you really need to go read Mat 13 before you embarrass yourself some more. The wheat was planted by the sower - the tares sprung up among the wheat. Then harvest time came...

I have read the 13th Chapter of Matthew.

Mat 13:40 (Geneva Bible):
As then the tares are gathered and burned in ye fire, so shall it be in the end of this world.

Jesus is telling a parable.
In the world the tares (unjust) would be gathered first & burned (hell); then the wheat (just in Christ) would be harvested and put in the barns (heaven).

Some don't check the rest of the Bible and think at the end of the age (current evil age, the present Church Age ) Jesus will gather the unjust first and the just second - for their just rewards.

But the Scripture tells a different order CLEARLY (and NOT in a parable):

Rev 20:6-7 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Blessed and holy is hee, that hath part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death hath no power: but they shalbe the Priests of God and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeere.
7 And when the thousand yeres are expired, Satan shalbe loosed out of his prison,

The just (in Christ) shall be resurrrected first; one thousand years later (literal or figurative) the unjust (not in Christ) shall be resurrected.

I recommend we let the more literal set our doctrines over the pictorial & symbolic parables

 

[jdlongmire]

I have read the 13th Chapter of Matthew.

Mat 13:40 (Geneva Bible):
As then the tares are gathered and burned in ye fire, so shall it be in the end of this world.

Jesus is telling a parable.
In the world the tares (unjust) would be gathered first & burned (hell); then the wheat (just in Christ) would be harvested and put in the barns (heaven).

Some don't check the rest of the Bible and think at the end of the age (current evil age, the present Church Age ) Jesus will gather the unjust first and the just second - for their just rewards.

But the Scripture tells a different order CLEARLY (and NOT in a parable):

Rev 20:6-7 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Blessed and holy is hee, that hath part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death hath no power: but they shalbe the Priests of God and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeere.
7 And when the thousand yeres are expired, Satan shalbe loosed out of his prison,

The just (in Christ) shall be resurrrected first; one thousand years later (literal or figurative) the unjust (not in Christ) shall be resurrected.

I recommend we let the more literal set our doctrines over the pictorial & symbolic parables

sigh...this is chasing rabbits...instead of actually understanding the plain meaning of the text...

 

[webdog]

So you believe that the elect,sheep,saints,Body and Bride of Christ,the beloved and many other designations in Scripture are not referencing the very same group of people?!

You really have to get things straight. In Matthew 25:32,33 : "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.He will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left."

There is no indication here that the Jews only are sheep, and that the Gentiles only are goats.

That is what's called a similie.

 

[webdog]

webdog - you are moving into silliness, now. Please go read the true exegetes before you make yourself look more foolish.



From here

You have a real problem with calling people fools and insulting those who don't agree with you. You need to grow up.

Many "true exegetes" disagree with Calvin. That means squat. Anyone can cut and paste theologians' beliefs.