CHRIST: Sinless or not?

[James_Newman]

Yes, Bitsy, you have summed it up nicely. Thanks.

The issue is NOT about wine, per se. The issue is the sinless character of Christ and exactly what that means and what that looks like in the practical experience of our daily lives.

For Christ said, "...let him deny himself and come follow me."

Can one be mistaken about the character of Christ and be SAVED?

Some have said yes, indeed one could be saved yet mistaken about Christ.

My answer is this:

THAT view opens the door for all kinds of heresy. i.e. Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, et al.

Well, I don't know about all kinds. I think there are certain things that you must believe, like the fundamentals. At what point can we claim to have perfect knowledge of Christ and or the scriptures if that is the standard we must attain before we can place our faith in Christ? Certainly after we are saved, we are going to be accountable for what we believe and teach others. We are admonished to study to show ourselves approved (at least those of us who read the KJV are ) and we are certainly in danger of being cast out at the judgment seat of Christ. I think that there is probably a correlation between the belief that alcohol is OK and the belief that there is no danger at the judgment seat for a Christian.

 

[npetreley]

Believe that that Jesus Never Drank real wine and thou shalt be saved"

Add to that "Believe that Jesus would never go anywhere or do anything that someone might misinterpret as Him sinning, or associating with sinful people or sinful practices."

In other words, Jesus never actually came to the world.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Someone can be wrong without lying. This is the kind of thing that gets people riled up. Why can't we have a discussion about God's Word with it being two sides?

This is not a salvation issue.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

It very well is a Salvation issue, mc.

If one utters a lie and lives a lie, can it truly be said that one is saved? Since the Word of God declares that those who lie will not enter into the Kingdom?

I believe it is a Salvation issue. Are they believing in a Christ that is sinless? or one that has sin?

 

[Dale-c]

Good point Npet and I might add that not everything that is sin for us is sin for God.
It was not sin for Jesus to claim to be God but it would have been sin for us to do that same.

We are warned against walking in the counsel of the unGodly in Proverbs but if Jesus was with the unGodly, they were NOT counseling Him.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Someone can be wrong without lying. This is the kind of thing that gets people riled up. Why can't we have a discussion about God's Word with it being two sides?

Pssst....Bitsy!! Sister, your common sense and wisdom is showing!

This is not a salvation issue.

One side believes it is. One side believes it is not. See, there's those two pesky sides again............

Unfortunately not everyone can see what you are trying to say. There are too busy taking sides.

 

[mcdirector]

Pssst....Bitsy!! Sister, your common sense and wisdom is showing!



One side believes it is. One side believes it is not. See, there's those two pesky sides again............

Unfortunately not everyone can see what you are trying to say. There are too busy taking sides.

Thank you sister

 

[Dale-c]

It very well is a Salvation issue, mc.

If one utters a lie and lives a lie, can it truly be said that one is saved? Since the Word of God declares that those who lie will not enter into the Kingdom?

I believe it is a Salvation issue.

MC, and HB, I am beginning to believe HB that it is a salvation issue.
I agree with you, Bitsy that it should not be. But when a person believes abstinence and beliefs about wine make a difference in their salvation, I wonder about that persons salvation.

What you believe about wine is irrelevant. What you believe about grace is very important.

 

[James_Newman]

One side believes it is. One side believes it is not. See, there's those two pesky sides again............

Then there's that third side that says saved Christians will give account for sin.

 

[npetreley]

Yes, Bitsy, you have summed it up nicely. Thanks.

The issue is NOT about wine, per se. The issue is the sinless character of Christ and exactly what that means and what that looks like in the practical experience of our daily lives.

For Christ said, "...let him deny himself and come follow me."

Can one be mistaken about the character of Christ and be SAVED?

Some have said yes, indeed one could be saved yet mistaken about Christ.

My answer is this:

THAT view opens the door for all kinds of heresy. i.e. Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, et al.

Well, this thread was a spin-off of the wine issue, so I think you need to address how different the two are.

The grape-juicers are convinced that alcohol is sinful, so they believe that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong about the character of Christ. But that's not reality. We all agree that Christ was without sin. We simply disagree that drinking wine (without getting drunk) is a sin. So those of us who do not believe wine is sinful aren't wrong about the character of Christ. At worst, we're wrong about whether or not He drank wine.

That isn't the same thing as leaving it open for all kinds of heresy. We all agree Christ was without sin, so there's no "false doctrine" creeping in about the sinlessness of Christ. The grape-juicers simply think that we're saying Christ sinned and we don't see that because they're saved and we're lost.

 

[James_Newman]

MC, and HB, I am beginning to believe HB that it is a salvation issue.
I agree with you, Bitsy that it should not be. But when a person believes abstinence and beliefs about wine make a difference in their salvation, I wonder about that persons salvation.

What you believe about wine is irrelevant. What you believe about grace is very important.

Thats true as well.

 

[dan e.]

Sounds like we've wrapped this one up in record time.

It'll be fun when we all get to meet one day in heaven, we can talk about how jacked up we were down here, and how amazing it is to be with Jesus. Right HBSMN?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It is not about believing in Grace at all.

There are those who will say God is not going to allow anyone to go to hell. And yet never placed their faith in His Son. Believing in Grace has nothing to do with it.

 

[Dale-c]

It is not about believing in Grace at all.

So is it about your good works then?

 

[dan e.]

It is not about believing in Grace at all.

There are those who will say God is not going to allow anyone to go to hell. And yet never placed their faith in His Son. Believing in Grace has nothing to do with it.

the dangers of legalism.

 

[Amy.G]

IF it is true that any drinking of alcohol is sin (and I believe that to be the case) and you do not:
And IF you believe Jesus not only made it at the wedding of Cana but also drank it (I do not)
THEN you are believing in a "saviour" who is not sinless but in fact is one who laid a stumbling block before many people and is no "savoiur at all.

I care not to make this a wine/no wine thread. The ISSUE is the character of The Lord Jesus Christ.

Must one believe in Christ properly to be saved?

Practically the whole of the New Testament seems to indicate that yes, one MUST believe rightly or he is NOT saved.

So, if we measure salvation by this standard, then which group is saved:

People who believe in tongues/people who do not

People who worship on Saturday/people who worship on Sunday

People who raise their hands in worship/people who do not

People who wear dresses only/people who do not

Calvinstists/non calvinists

All of these things are done because of our perception of God's character, are they not? Are they not based on what we each believe is God's will which is rooted in His character?

The Bible is clear. We are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The Christ that was born of a virgin. The Christ that led a sinless life. The Christ that was crucified for our sins. The Christ that was resurrected and is our High Priest in heaven. The Christ that will one day return for His own. Is there another Christ? This is the Christ that I know. And more importantly, He knows me.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

So is it about your good works then?

No, it is not about believing in works either.

It is about placing one's faith in Christ Jesus, not his Grace. It is about placing one's faith in Christ Jesus, not one's works.

But, if one truly places one's faith in Christ Jesus, works are sure to follow.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

the dangers of legalism.

Not legalism at all. Show me Scripture that says we are to place our faith in grace.

 

[npetreley]

People who wear dresses only/people who do not

Do we have to agree on whether or not we believe Jesus wore a dress? Do robes count as dresses?

 

[Dale-c]

But, if one truly places one's faith in Christ Jesus, works are sure to follow.

We are HIS workmanship. Even our "good works" are really HIs good works in us or they are not good at all.

 

[Amy.G]

Do we have to agree on whether or not we believe Jesus wore a dress? Do robes count as dresses?

:laugh:
...........