CHRIST: Sinless or not?

[dan e.]

Not legalism at all. Show me Scripture that says we are to place our faith in grace.

show me where I made that statement.

You're an interesting guy HBSMN....an interesting guy. I guess I don't quite know how to handle fundies...are you a minister?? Just curious.

 

[npetreley]

See, here's how this whole wine argument sounds to me:

You: "I believe Jesus associated Himself with tax collectors because they are among the people He saved."

Me: "That's heresy. Jesus would not associate with tax collectors. They're sinners. If you believe that you believe in some Jesus other than the one of the Bible."

You: "But it says that Jesus associated with tax collectors right here in black and white."

Me: "It is well known that the words translated 'tax collector' refers to sinners in some places, and the righteous in others. Context, context, context. If Jesus associated with one, it has to be a righteous tax collector. In other contexts, it was the sinner."

You: "That's crazy. Tax collector means tax collector. Are you saying that if I believe that Jesus associated with sinful tax collectors I'm not saved?"

Me: "It doesn't matter what I say. It's the Holy Word of God. Many people will say to Jesus, 'Lord, Lord' but won't be saved. If you believe Jesus would associate with tax collectors, you will not recognize the real Jesus."

And so on...

 

[dan e.]

See, here's how this whole wine argument sounds to me:

You: "I believe Jesus associated Himself with tax collectors because they are among the people He saved."

Me: "That's heresy. Jesus would not associate with tax collectors. They're sinners. If you believe that you believe in some Jesus other than the one of the Bible."

You: "But it says that Jesus associated with tax collectors right here in black and white."

Me: "It is well known that the words translated 'tax collector' refers to sinners in some places, and the righteous in others. Context, context, context. If Jesus associated with one, it has to be a righteous tax collector. In other contexts, it was the sinner."

You: "That's crazy. Tax collector means tax collector. Are you saying that if I believe that Jesus associated with sinful tax collectors I'm not saved?"

Me: "It doesn't matter what I say. It's the Holy Word of God. Many people will say to Jesus, 'Lord, Lord' but won't be saved. If you believe Jesus would associate with tax collectors, you will not recognize the real Jesus."

And so on...

how accurate.

 

[James_Newman]

See, here's how this whole wine argument sounds to me:

You: "I believe Jesus associated Himself with tax collectors because they are among the people He saved."

Me: "That's heresy. Jesus would not associate with tax collectors. They're sinners. If you believe that you believe in some Jesus other than the one of the Bible."

You: "But it says that Jesus associated with tax collectors right here in black and white."

Me: "It is well known that the words translated 'tax collector' refers to sinners in some places, and the righteous in others. Context, context, context. If Jesus associated with one, it has to be a righteous tax collector. In other contexts, it was the sinner."

You: "That's crazy. Tax collector means tax collector. Are you saying that if I believe that Jesus associated with sinful tax collectors I'm not saved?"

Me: "It doesn't matter what I say. It's the Holy Word of God. Many people will say to Jesus, 'Lord, Lord' but won't be saved. If you believe Jesus would associate with tax collectors, you will not recognize the real Jesus."

And so on...

Does it follow that Jesus collected taxes Himself? And that we should also become tax collectors?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Someone can be wrong without lying. This is the kind of thing that gets people riled up. Why can't we have a discussion about God's Word with it being two sides?

This is not a salvation issue.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Indeed, it is a Salvation issue.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not: (Mark 13:21)

If one is pointed to the wrong Christ, one will not know Salvation.

 

[Dale-c]

BUt what you believe about the alcohol content of the wine that Jesus drank does not make a difference about which Jesus you believe in.

That is preposterous to think it makes a difference in salvation.

 

[dan e.]

Indeed, it is a Salvation issue.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not: (Mark 13:21)

If one is pointed to the wrong Christ, one will not know Salvation.

Can we stop acting as if we are talking about two different people? That sure is a deceitful and cheap tactic to use in order to enhance your argument. Its pretty foolish. We are not debating Jesus, just a prophet, versus Jesus, God in the flesh. We are not talking about two different Jesuseseses. We are talking about something Jesus made....alcoholic wine, nonalcoholic wine.

some of you fell off your rockers.

 

[Dale-c]

some of you fell off your rockers.

Maybe they are drunk on non alcoholic wine
Just kidding, couldn't resist.

 

[dan e.]

I won't name those who fell off there rockers....His Blood Spoke My Name....aawww crud. I didn't mean to write a name.

HBSMN...here's the different between me and you. I have the impression (here I go again asking for clarification) that if we met, you may not treat me very kindly. I doubt you'd be willing to go out for coffee, and just hang out with me as brothers in Christ. I most definitely would take time to get to know you, and would treat you as my brother. I really would. Despite my disagreement with you, I have no reason to believe that you haven't repented and confessed faith in Jesus.

You are my brother. :thumbs:

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Dan,

Where you made the statement was post #54. You quoted His Blood and then said 'the dangers of legalism'.

 

[mcdirector]

I am humbly removing myself from this conversation. It is going nowhere.

I believe we are at an empasse that will not be crossed by mere words.

I do understand where those of you who do not believe Jesus drank wine are coming from. I really do. I just don't agree with you.

Bitsy

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Jesus did not make alcoholic wine.

 

[dan e.]

Dan,

Where you made the statement was post #54. You quoted His Blood and then said 'the dangers of legalism'.

right...I said "the dangers of legalism". I was referring to claiming that you must have faith in grace, not have faith in Jesus.

Sorry if I worded incorrectly, or in a confusing way. I was saying that I never said you must have faith in grace. Not that I said the legalism remark.

 

[dan e.]

Jesus did not make alcoholic wine.

That was funny. Making a small sentence like that after all this debate and discussion. I really did laugh. Its kind of like going back to the very beginning and restating what you think very short and simple.

It seems funny at this stage.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

It should have been worded differently. The reply looked as if your answer was accusing His Blood of being legalistic.

 

[Dale-c]

It seems funny at this stage.

I am literally laughing out loud!

But, like MC I am going to bow out for a while I think. go eat dinner, drink a little wine and have a good time with my family

 

[dan e.]

It should have been worded differently. The reply looked as if your answer was accusing His Blood of being legalistic.

I did say "the dangers of legalism". What I was saying that I never said was that you must have faith in grace.

I never denied saying "the dangers of legalism", but denied saying that faith must be in grace, and not Jesus.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

That was funny. Making a small sentence like that after all this debate and discussion. I really did laugh. Its kind of like going back to the very beginning and restating what you think very short and simple.

It seems funny at this stage.

I bet Jesus isn't laughing.

 

[dan e.]

I bet Jesus isn't laughing.

that was even funnier.

 

[dan e.]

I'm a little disappointed you won't comment on my words towards you HBSMN.

I really do see a problem when something like this divides brothers in Christ so deeply. I would not refuse to fellowship with you despite our disagreements. I have a feeling you wouldn't even consider me a brother!