CHRIST: Sinless or not?

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

**Insult removed**That verse does not say Jesus was drinking an alcoholic beverage.

You said several verses and you provide only one that doesn't prove what you think it does.

Where are the others?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Here is another passage from Leighton G. Campbell's book 'Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence' that proves beyond the shadow of doubt that Jesus could not have and did not drink alcoholic wine:

Jesus And Wine

In Luke 7:33-35, Jesus said:

Luke 7:33-35 33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. 34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! 35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

The first part of this passage we will deal with is the case regarding John the Baptist’s Abstinence. Some in their zeal for the abstinence cause have incorrectly used this as a case for total abstinence from strong and intoxicating drinks, and have ran into deep problems when faced with the explaining Jesus statement that He had come eating and drinking.

The point is that John the Baptist’s case is not one that can be used for the cause of total abstinence. On announcing John’s birth, the angel said:


Luke 1:15 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

This was a statement declaring that John would adopt a life long Nazarite vow, which would mean that he would have to abstain from everything from the vine, whether it was grapes, grape juice or fermented wine. As was stated earlier in another chapter, this corresponds to the command given by God to Moses in Numbers chapter six verses one to four, which reads:

Numbers 6:1-4 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: 3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. 4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Although Jesus was a Nazarene because He was brought up there, He was not a Nazarite, in that He had not taken this vow. This is why He was free to eat and drink the fruit of the vine, hence Christ’s statement that He had come eating and drinking. This answers the question of those who pose the argument that the term “drinking” as Jesus used it, was being used in the same sense as we understand it today. In that He was saying that He was a drinker of alcoholic, fermented, or intoxicating beverages.

The Greek language also refutes this suggestion, because a different word is always used to distinguish a drinker of intoxicating beverages from a drinker of something pure such as water or milk. The word Jesus uses to describe His drinking is ‘pino,’ the ordinary word for drink. This is different from the word His enemies use to describe His alleged drinking, as we shall see.

Christ’s enemies called Him a winebibber (a wine drinker), the original word is oinopotes; from oinos, wine and potes, a drinker. When the word oinos (wine) is used in Scripture it means wine in its fermented or unfermented state; but when it is compounded with potes to produce oinopotes, a wine drinker, it always means a drinker of alcoholic wine.

In our opening text Jesus refutes the false accusations of His enemies by saying, “But wisdom is justified of all her children.” The Amplified Bible states:

Yet wisdom is vindicated [shown to be true and divine] by all her children [that is, by their life, character and deeds.] (Luke 7:35)

Ther original word translated “justified” is dikaioo, which primarily means, “to be deemed to be right.” Jesus was therefore saying that the accusations aimed at Him by His enemies that He was a glutton and a wine drinker were false. And that He would be vindicated or shown to be right by the lives of His children or disciples.

Christ’s statement was correct because we read earlier in Acts 2:13, His disciples were accused of being drunk with new wine (sweet grape juice). This however was not a literal accusation but mockery. This was because it was known that the disciples of Christ did not drink intoxicating wine.

We can thus see clearly from the scriptures, that Christ, who is the personification of Wisdom, was not a wine drinker, and He all but states it word for word!

Your using the corresponding verse in Matthew has been shown to be false accusations toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

Here is a link that explains wine and how it was used in Bible times.

http://www.salembible.org/biblestudies/alcohol_3.htm

 

[rbell]

Quoting Leighton Campbell...

Christ’s statement was correct because we read earlier in Acts 2:13, His disciples were accused of being drunk with new wine (sweet grape juice). This however was not a literal accusation but mockery. This was because it was known that the disciples of Christ did not drink intoxicating wine.

Classic circular reasoning...we know they didn't drink...and because they didn't drink, we can be sure that they didn't drink.

Sorry, pal, you and Leighton are having to torture some Greek to get to your conclusions.

But to each his own...

Rbell <------a tee-totaller (let the attacks begin)

 

[Conservative Christian]

Please note that "His Blood Spoke My Name" must use a book OUTSIDE the Bible to "prove" his alleged point. Mr. Leighton Campbell's OPINIONS and INTERPRETATIONS are his own.

Christ was seen eating and drinking WINE, and was falsely accused of being gluttonous and a drunkard.

It is TRUE that He was NOT gluttonous or drunk, but it is also TRUE He WAS drinking wine.

So yours and Campbell's arguments fail, both logically and biblically.

Also, anybody even a little familiar with the Bible knows that Christ's Last Supper was the Passover meal. Jews have historically ALWAYS drunk ALCOHOLIC WINE with their Passover meal---NOT "grape juice", as certain naive Christians would like everybody to believe.

Christ partook of the Passover meal, and I must say that I've never seen anything in the Bible that says "Oh, it was just grape juice!"

So it is quite obvious that Christ and the Disciples drank WINE at the Last Supper, NOT "grape juice".

The bottom line is that naive teetotalers will believe what they wish, regardless of the facts. Christ and several of the Apostles drank WINE frequently with their meals, not "grape juice". It is astounding the lengths and logical leaps teetotalers will go to, in order to deny the obvious--Jesus and most of the Disciples drank WINE in moderation with their meals.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Here is a link that explains wine and how it was used in Bible times.

http://www.salembible.org/biblestudies/alcohol_3.htm

Amy, that link you provide is not a good source for proving wines in the Bible were always alcoholic.

I have a copy of one of the books that that site supposedly quotes sitting in front of me, in which they say Pliny said the wine was mixed with water to weaken it.

While there are 8 instances where Pliny is mentioned in the book, he is not mentioned on the page they claim, nor does he speak about water mixed with wine in the pages he is on.

A church has to lie to justify alcohol?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Please note that "His Blood Spoke My Name" must use a book OUTSIDE the Bible to "prove" his alleged point. Mr. Leighton Campbell's OPINIONS and INTERPRETATIONS are his own.

Christ was seen eating and drinking WINE, and was falsely accused of being gluttonous and a drunkard.

It is TRUE that He was NOT gluttonous or drunk, but it is also TRUE He WAS drinking wine.

So yours and Campbell's arguments fail, both logically and biblically.

Also, anybody even a little familiar with the Bible knows that Christ's Last Supper was the Passover meal. Jews have historically ALWAYS drunk ALCOHOLIC WINE with their Passover meal---NOT "grape juice", as certain naive Christians would like everybody to believe.

Christ partook of the Passover meal, and I must say that I've never seen anything in the Bible that says "Oh, it was just grape juice!"

So it is quite obvious that Christ and the Disciples drank WINE at the Last Supper, NOT "grape juice".

The bottom line is that naive teetotalers will believe what they wish, regardless of the facts. Christ and several of the Apostles drank WINE frequently with their meals, not "grape juice". It is astounding the lengths and logical leaps teetotalers will go to, in order to deny the obvious--Jesus and most of the Disciples drank WINE in moderation with their meals.

Using the Bible, Christ did not say He was drinking wine... and the Greek will show that. Using Campbell's book or not!

 

[rbell]

Amy, that link you provide is not a good source for proving wines in the Bible were always alcoholic.

I have a copy of one of the books that that site supposedly quotes sitting in front of me, in which they say Pliny said the wine was mixed with water to weaken it.

While there are 8 instances where Pliny is mentioned in the book, he is not mentioned on the page they claim, nor does he speak about water mixed with wine in the pages he is on.

A church has to lie to justify alcohol?

I've noticed the "liar" label being thrown out waaaay too much lately. You don't know...they may be lying. But (more likely) they didn't document the right quote. It could very well be a typo from a compiled source.

But....I'm sure you'll stick with the "liar" label.

 

[Conservative Christian]

A church has to lie to justify alcohol?

How do you know that the intent of their article is to "justify" alcohol? Please identify precisely which statements in their article are lies.

Be careful that you do not bear false witness, since that is considered a greater sin in the Bible than the moderate consumption of wine.

Gee, I just can't remember seeing anything about wine in the Ten Commandments. But I do recall seeing something about bearing false witness.

By the way, I do NOT drink wine or any other alcoholic beverages.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So it is quite obvious that Christ and the Disciples drank WINE at the Last Supper, NOT "grape juice".

I am not sure what Bible you are reading, but not only are you accusing my Lord falsely of drinking wine when the Pharisees accused Him, but you also falsely accuse Him in say He drank wine at the Last Supper. Here is the account:

And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? And he answered and said, He that dippeth [his] hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:19-29)

Jesus never drank of the cup there at that table. He said He would not drink of it!

 

[Conservative Christian]

I've noticed the "liar" label being thrown out waaaay too much lately. You don't know...they may be lying. But (more likely) they didn't document the right quote. It could very well be a typo from a compiled source. But....I'm sure you'll stick with the "liar" label.

Or the quotation might be from a different edition/printing of the same book, which would logically explain why the page numbers don't match. The "liar" label is premature and unjustified at this point in time.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I've noticed the "liar" label being thrown out waaaay too much lately. You don't know...they may be lying. But (more likely) they didn't document the right quote. It could very well be a typo from a compiled source.

But....I'm sure you'll stick with the "liar" label.

Since I have the book in front of me and what they say is in the book is not there, it is a lie. It is not truth they have posted on that page.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Or the quotation might be from a different edition/printing of the same book, which would logically explain why the page numbers don't match. The "liar" label is premature and unjustified at this point in time.

Page numbers with Pliny on it say nothing at all about wine mixed with water. As a matter of fact, the word water is not mentioned on those pages at all.

You are really grasping, aren't you?

 

[rbell]

Since I have the book in front of me and what they say is in the book is not there, it is a lie. It is not truth they have posted on that page.

Fine. They're liars now.

2 pages from now they'll be blasphemers.

4 pages from now they'll be unsaved.

5 pages from now this thread will close, and someone will open another Wine-o-rama (or Welch-o-rama, depending on your viewpoint).

Bye.:wavey:

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Quoting Leighton Campbell...

Christ’s statement was correct because we read earlier in Acts 2:13, His disciples were accused of being drunk with new wine (sweet grape juice). This however was not a literal accusation but mockery. This was because it was known that the disciples of Christ did not drink intoxicating wine.

Wow. Peter must have been dumb as a rock, then, to think that they actually supposed they were drunk! "For these men are not drunken, as ye suppose..."

I wish someone would've saved him the embarrassment by saying, "Hey, Peter, they're just picking on you. They don't really think you're drunk!"

Michael

 

[Linda64]

Notes from a sermon on "The Bible and Beverage Alcohol, Part 1" done by Pastor Marc Monte on August 10, 2005:

II. The Hebrew Terms for Wine and Their Uses

A. The Hebrew words translated “wine” in the Bible do not always mean fermented or intoxicating wine.

B. The Hebrew word yayin, most often translated “wine” in the Old Testament, means grape juice in any form—fermented or unfermented. The true meaning can only be determined by the context. Yayin is a general term referring to any beverage—sweet or sour, fermented or fresh—derived from grapes.

C. The Hebrew word tirosh, also translated “wine,” in all but one possible case means “new wine,” “unfermented wine.” This word was used repeatedly in the original text in the places where wine has a good textual connotation. Example: Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth and plenty of corn and wine [tirosh—unfermented grape juice](Gen. 27:28). Note the association of fresh corn at harvest with fresh, unfermented grape juice at harvest.

D. Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines.

E. Having carefully examined the context of the uses of yayin in the Old Testament, Dr. Robert P. Teachout has concluded that this word is intended to mean grape juice 71 times and fermented wine 70 times.

F. How can the English reader determine whether the Old Testament is speaking of unfermented, good wine, or fermented, bad wine? Simply examine the context of the verse. Wherever the use of wine is prohibited or discouraged, the reference is to fermented wine. Where its use is encouraged, the reference is to unfermented grape juice.

G. Any argument for the use of beverage alcohol must blur the distinction in Old Testament usage of the word “wine.” In addition, such arguments must “explain away” the Bible’s clear condemnation of intoxicating beverages.

Part 1 and Part II of this sermon are found here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...y=true&keywordwithin=Beverage+Alcohol&x=0&y=0

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Wow. Peter must have been dumb as a rock, then, to think that they actually supposed they were drunk! "For these men are not drunken, as ye suppose..."

I wish someone would've saved him the embarrassment by saying, "Hey, Peter, they're just picking on you. They don't really think you're drunk!"

Michael
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Those that were mocking were accusing the men of being drunk. They knew the Apostles followed the Lord and did not drink alcoholic wine at all. When they saw the men speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, they were mocking because they thought that the Apostles wine had indeed been proven to be an alcoholic wine. It was not. And Peter affirmed this.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

And they were accused of being drunk on what again? Oh, yeah, new wine. Isn't that supposed to be the "God-approved-ancient-Welch's"?

 

[Conservative Christian]

Page numbers with Pliny on it say nothing at all about wine mixed with water. As a matter of fact, the word water is not mentioned on those pages at all.

You are really grasping, aren't you?

You're the one grasping. Not to mention you bore false witness against the church whose article was linked to earlier, by accusing them of trying to "justify" alcohol use, which they were clearly NOT trying to do.

Breaking one of the Ten Commandments is NOT "standing firm in Christ". Nor is perpetuating the lie that what Christ and the disciples were "really" drinking is "grape juice".

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

And they were accused of being drunk on what again? Oh, yeah, new wine. Isn't that supposed to be the "God-approved-ancient-Welch's"?

Apparently you did not read my last post, did you? They were accused falsely. The accusers were saying, the wine you drink has made you drunk. It had not. It could not have made them drunk, because it was not alcoholic.