Christian Denominations that Don't Vote

[DaveXR650]

BUT these are not reasons I do not vote. The articles I posted are why I don't vote.

If you get to pick the reasons you don't vote, (which I actually agree that you do), then I get to say why I do vote, without you making an offensive charge that I am being dishonest, as you do here:

I am just asking you to be a bit more honest about WHAT you support (I know why, but you are not being honest about what you are supporting).

I have I think clearly stated the reasons I am voting for Trump, just like @Scarlett O. did. Is she being dishonest too? I think what I am doing is pretty clear, is agreed with by the majority of the Christian world in this country, and is what I think a reasonable person would do. Believe me, it is honest. The first time Trump ran I stood in the booth for 20 minutes and could not bring myself to vote for him. I did vote for him last time because he did not destroy civilization and he kept his promise on the justices. The repeal of Roe brought a change which is new for us to face in the pro life movement. Namely, we have been getting our clocks cleaned at the polls. To me it's very simple this time to try to vote. I don't ask you to agree but that is my strategy and it is offensive as well as incorrect for you to keep saying that is dishonest, especially when you are supposed to also be a moderator.

 

[JonC]

If you get to pick the reasons you don't vote, (which I actually agree that you do), then I get to say why I do vote, without you making an offensive charge that I am being dishonest, as you do here:

I have I think clearly stated the reasons I am voting for Trump, just like @Scarlett O. did. Is she being dishonest too? I think what I am doing is pretty clear, is agreed with by the majority of the Christian world in this country, and is what I think a reasonable person would do. Believe me, it is honest. The first time Trump ran I stood in the booth for 20 minutes and could not bring myself to vote for him. I did vote for him last time because he did not destroy civilization and he kept his promise on the justices. The repeal of Roe brought a change which is new for us to face in the pro life movement. Namely, we have been getting our clocks cleaned at the polls. To me it's very simple this time to try to vote. I don't ask you to agree but that is my strategy and it is offensive as well as incorrect for you to keep saying that is dishonest, especially when you are supposed to also be a moderator.

I think many supporting Trump are being honest. They do not like Trump or do not like his platform.

It is a compromise. They know that their support for Trump is a support for him doing what he says he will do - some good, some bad.

The difference is that they realize this and reluctantly, holding their nose, will cast their vote in support of the GOP in order to try and prevent Harris from winning.

I cannot speak for @Scarlett O. , but given her character I do not believe she wants Trump elected but rather does not want Harris elected.

That is what I mean by honesty.

When you vote you support a political party - the good and bad - for the elected office.

You act as if you can support Trump while not supporting what he states he will try to do.


I get the compromise. I don't get playing make believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

I cannot speak for @Scarlett O. , but given her character I do not believe she wants Trump elected but rather does not want Harris elected.

That is what I mean by honesty.

When you vote you support a political party - the good and bad - for the elected office.

You act as if you can support Trump while not supporting what he states he will try to do.


I get the compromise. I don't get playing make believe.

People can judge for themselves what to make of this. I feel exactly as @Scarlett O. does about this vote cycle and said so in the above post. Yet somehow I am being dishonest in Jon's eyes.
It is a simple fact that even as bad as the Republican platform is this time around, and even if they were to actually accomplish everything they have promised in their platform, which they won't , there would not be one singe additional abortion as compared to what will be the case if the Democrats win, nor will the homosexual agenda move one more inch in their direction. That's the point that I don't mind continually making so that everyone on here might see this and not be swayed by your faulty logic. I am willing to do this for 300 more replies until election day if necessary. You are the one playing make believe. Somehow you think you can derive some sense of moral satisfaction by helping cause more abortions, and further entrenchment of the radical homosexual agenda but by golly you will be pure in your own self satisfying secret vote, which won't matter anyway.

 

[percho]

"My choice not to vote, however, is more than choosing which tradition to follow—it’s fundamental to my faith. Let me explain.

I believe God is sovereign over everything. He doesn’t need me, specifically, to accomplish his will.

He doesn’t need you to accomplish his will. . .

God is sovereign over everything and he doesn’t need my measly vote in order to push forward his purposes on this earth.

However, God does invite us to participate in his work of reconciliation.

While God does not need us, God wants us to be a part of pushing forward his purposes. And although we commonly use this as an excuse for voting, it’s actually foundational for why I don’t vote. . .

If it is possible to help push forward God’s purposes through legislature, then it’s also possible to push for his enemy’s purposes through legislature. And I don’t want to be a part of that.

Now I have heard people try to argue that God allows us to be involved in politics. But I would submit that even there we are stretching to find biblical basis for it. Many of the verses used are not actually talking about pushing forward political ideas and influencing political structures as a means of advancing the Kingdom of God.
Why I Don’t Vote (and probably never will) - Unfeigned Christianity

Assuming you think, regardless of which you vote for you are voting for someone and or something below God's standard;

IYO Are, "the purposes of God," going to come about, on earth, by men getting better and better or worst and worst bringing forth, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever," Dan 2:44?

Now I will state, I believe the kingdom of Daniel 2:44 will be on the earth.

IMHO It is impossible for even Christian men not of the following state, "for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; 1 Cor 15:53," to govern on this earth with absolute righteousness.

Also IMHO I believe my life and liberty, in the, "mortal,' flesh, will be better off with Trump as president presently, than man or woman running for that office.

I hope and pray he is a little different than the Rino's of the GOP.

 

[percho]

PensiveTulip on X: "Drop everything and watch this: https://t.co/MzwNqq0XTu" / X


Insurrection Barbie on X: "A very important message for the 32 million Christians that plan to sit this election out. https://t.co/5qPrYuN0VD" / X

 

[JonC]

People can judge for themselves what to make of this. I feel exactly as @Scarlett O. does about this vote cycle and said so in the above post. Yet somehow I am being dishonest in Jon's eyes.
It is a simple fact that even as bad as the Republican platform is this time around, and even if they were to actually accomplish everything they have promised in their platform, which they won't , there would not be one singe additional abortion as compared to what will be the case if the Democrats win, nor will the homosexual agenda move one more inch in their direction. That's the point that I don't mind continually making so that everyone on here might see this and not be swayed by your faulty logic. I am willing to do this for 300 more replies until election day if necessary. You are the one playing make believe. Somehow you think you can derive some sense of moral satisfaction by helping cause more abortions, and further entrenchment of the radical homosexual agenda but by golly you will be pure in your own self satisfying secret vote, which won't matter anyway.

No. Not all positions supporting Trump are equal.

You posted that you, by supporting Trump, are not supporting Trumo for the office of POTUS to do what he says he will do if elected.

That part is not being honest.

My belief is that when you have to "hold your nose" to do something you probably should not be doing that something.

There is a reason you have to "hold your nose" to support Trump.

BUT my position is stated in post#12.

 

[JonC]

Assuming you think, regardless of which you vote for you are voting for someone and or something below God's standard;

IYO Are, "the purposes of God," going to come about, on earth, by men getting better and better or worst and worst bringing forth, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever," Dan 2:44?

Now I will state, I believe the kingdom of Daniel 2:44 will be on the earth.

IMHO It is impossible for even Christian men not of the following state, "for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; 1 Cor 15:53," to govern on this earth with absolute righteousness.

Also IMHO I believe my life and liberty, in the, "mortal,' flesh, will be better off with Trump as president presently, than man or woman running for that office.

I hope and pray he is a little different than the Rino's of the GOP.

I believe the country would be better served if Trump wins the election. The DNC is a greater danger to our nation. The GOP is a greater danger to our faith (the DNC wears evil as a badge of pride, the GOP wears sheep's clothing).

My position is in post#12.

 

[DaveXR650]

You posted that you, by supporting Trump, are not supporting Trumo for the office of POTUS to do what he says he will do if elected.

That part is not being honest.

Making a false charge like this, repeatedly, with no evidence to support, should be outside of acceptable posts. People can decide for themselves what this means about you.
Trump wins = fewer babies killed Kamala wins = more babies killed
The weirdness of their lifestyles, their personalities, even their possible lunacy or instability are all conjecture by us, to be discovered as time goes on by humans who can't see the future. The equation above is fact. I really hope that you can feel good about your position being "honest". It doesn't look like that to me.

I'm not so sure this whole idea about Christian groups not voting isn't bogus. I would have to go back and look and see if there is similar literature posted against the liberal candidates and their moral unfitness by these guardians of truth and consistency. I have been watching this unfold for a long time and I notice with guys like Russell Moore and David French they put out an article attacking believers and soon after get that coveted article in the Washington Post. I sometimes wonder if their job wasn't to peel off 10% or so of the problematic Christian vote that has plagued the march of cultural Marxism since Falwell Sr. got the "moral majority" to vote.

 

[JonC]

Making a false charge like this, repeatedly, with no evidence to support, should be outside of acceptable posts. People can decide for themselves what this means about you.
Trump wins = fewer babies killed Kamala wins = more babies killed
The weirdness of their lifestyles, their personalities, even their possible lunacy or instability are all conjecture by us, to be discovered as time goes on by humans who can't see the future. The equation above is fact. I really hope that you can feel good about your position being "honest". It doesn't look like that to me.

I'm not so sure this whole idea about Christian groups not voting isn't bogus. I would have to go back and look and see if there is similar literature posted against the liberal candidates and their moral unfitness by these guardians of truth and consistency. I have been watching this unfold for a long time and I notice with guys like Russell Moore and David French they put out an article attacking believers and soon after get that coveted article in the Washington Post. I sometimes wonder if their job wasn't to peel off 10% or so of the problematic Christian vote that has plagued the march of cultural Marxism since Falwell Sr. got the "moral majority" to vote.

Christian groups abstaining from voting is not bogus. The video @robt.k.fall posted is true. Also, it is true that Christians refused to participate in politics until the 4th century (read Tertullian's and Origen's explanations to the secular world as to why Christians abstained from politics).

You need to make up your mind.

I argued that by supporting Trump you were supporting Trump to do what he said he would do if elected (to include no abortion ban and gay community interests). You disagreed that you were supporting what Trump said he would do by supporting his election.

 

[JonC]

Trump wins = fewer babies killed Kamala wins = more babies killed

This is a false assumption.

If Trump wins then abortion may be illegal in a few states (there are not many with over a 40% pro-life population). But illegal abortion and simply traveling across state lines (often on the DNC dime) will still occur.

One cannot legislate morality.

At one time the GOP stated goals would have had an impact. But since the position (and your support) has changed to abortion as a choice there will be no fewer babies killed.

Even if there were you are back at your support for a pro-choice agenda (you would be supporting the murder of babies in the hope fewer would be killed).

 

[DaveXR650]

Christian groups abstaining from voting is not bogus. The video @robt.k.fall posted is true. Also, it is true that Christians refused to participate in politics until the 4th century (read Tertullian's and Origen's explanations to the secular world as to why Christians abstained from politics).

Believe me Jon, you don't want to do everything Origen did.

Do you support Trump for President with the expectation he will at least try to do what he has promised he would do?

If so then you support him to do what he said he would do and are not being honest in this post.

If not then you are not being honest about what you support.

It's you that's being dishonest. I have explained that my main purpose in voting for Trump is to keep the Dems out and minimize the structural damage they have promised to do. If you are not being dishonest at this point then there could be a comprehension problem.

If Trump wins then abortion may be illegal in a few states (there are not many with over a 40% pro-life population). But illegal abortion and simply traveling across state lines (often on the DNC dime) will still occur.

One cannot legislate morality.

A majority of Republicans are still very pro life, and wanting severe restrictions on abortion if not a total ban. Of course you legislate morality. Almost all laws are a legislation of morality. You have fallen into the trap that the idea that you cannot make people internally moral by legislation (which is true), is the same as legislation that is clearly for the common good. That argument has been had a thousand times already.

At one time the GOP stated goals would have had an impact. But since the position (and your support) has changed to abortion as a choice there will be no fewer babies killed.

That is factually not true. People are smart enough to look at what the candidates say and judge for themselves. I understand your concern with the degradation of both parties. Thirty years ago I voted for a local Democrat running for congress with a Right to Life endorsement and an A+ rating from the NRA. Things change, and not always for the better. Democrats at the Federal level used to say they wanted abortion to be "safe, legal, and rare". Now they brag about the time they had one. The degradation may go one way and then go another. All one can do is what is possible to do at the time. When I read Wilberforce I get some encouragement. In his book he says that the Church of England at the time was apostate, the people were unhealthy drunks working their children 16 hours a day in factories and then drinking up the kids paychecks, and the economy depended on slavery. But he devoted his life to "legislating morality" and had some victories. Things improved for everyone. Don't give up. Do what you can. The preacher in the video @percho posted above did a good job of explaining both the purpose and the limitation of what you can do politically.

 

[JonC]

Believe me Jon, you don't want to do everything Origen did.

It's you that's being dishonest. I have explained that my main purpose in voting for Trump is to keep the Dems out and minimize the structural damage they have promised to do. If you are not being dishonest at this point then there could be a comprehension problem.

A majority of Republicans are still very pro life, and wanting severe restrictions on abortion if not a total ban. Of course you legislate morality. Almost all laws are a legislation of morality. You have fallen into the trap that the idea that you cannot make people internally moral by legislation (which is true), is the same as legislation that is clearly for the common good. That argument has been had a thousand times already.

That is factually not true. People are smart enough to look at what the candidates say and judge for themselves. I understand your concern with the degradation of both parties. Thirty years ago I voted for a local Democrat running for congress with a Right to Life endorsement and an A+ rating from the NRA. Things change, and not always for the better. Democrats at the Federal level used to say they wanted abortion to be "safe, legal, and rare". Now they brag about the time they had one. The degradation may go one way and then go another. All one can do is what is possible to do at the time. When I read Wilberforce I get some encouragement. In his book he says that the Church of England at the time was apostate, the people were unhealthy drunks working their children 16 hours a day in factories and then drinking up the kids paychecks, and the economy depended on slavery. But he devoted his life to "legislating morality" and had some victories. Things improved for everyone. Don't give up. Do what you can. The preacher in the video @percho posted above did a good job of explaining both the purpose and the limitation of what you can do politically.

Origen was asked to write the apologetic. Tertullian did the same. They just explained why Christians abstained from politics. They were not "of the World".

You make the same mistake in your argument once again.

I know WHY you support Trump. I am talking about WHAT you are supporting in hopes of defeating the DNC.

You are supporting (to name few things):

1. A smaller federal government
2. Boarder security
3. Less involvement in foreign wars
4. The government paying for IVF treatment
5. No taxes on overtime, tips, or Social Security
6. The normalization of homosexuality
7. Protection of same sex marriage
8. A guarantee no national abortion ban
9. Tariffs on foreign goods
10. Protection of the citizens right to choose abortion.

The REASON you are supporting those things (what Trump said he would do if elected) is to prevent the DNC from winning the election.

But those are things that you are supporting, regardless of your opinion of those things.

 

[kyredneck]

my main purpose in voting for Trump

In 2016, one of my major concerns was which party gets to pick the SCOTUS nominees, still is.

 

[DaveXR650]

The REASON you are supporting those things (what Trump said he would do if elected) is to prevent the DNC from winning the election.

No. I do not support those things. (Some of them I do) but I do understand the concept of unintended consequences. We all risk that. Who knows at this point whether staying out of involvement in foreign wars is wiser than the Neocon idea of policing the world. Only when it becomes history will we know those answers. You do not share the guilt of every policy a regime has just because you support some of the things they do. The power of Rome made it possible for Paul to travel most of the known world with some degree of safety and Paul was a citizen by birth. That does not mean Paul was supporting the arena, or the conquering and pillaging of most of the planet. Most Republicans support severe restrictions on abortion. The vast majority of Republicans while they don't care what homosexuals do in private, do not want government officials who are men wearing dresses, nor do they announce they are coming for your children. Anyone who can't see the differences is a moron.

 

[JonC]

No. I do not support those things. (Some of them I do) but I do understand the concept of unintended consequences. We all risk that. Who knows at this point whether staying out of involvement in foreign wars is wiser than the Neocon idea of policing the world. Only when it becomes history will we know those answers. You do not share the guilt of every policy a regime has just because you support some of the things they do. The power of Rome made it possible for Paul to travel most of the known world with some degree of safety and Paul was a citizen by birth. That does not mean Paul was supporting the arena, or the conquering and pillaging of most of the planet. Most Republicans support severe restrictions on abortion. The vast majority of Republicans while they don't care what homosexuals do in private, do not want government officials who are men wearing dresses, nor do they announce they are coming for your children. Anyone who can't see the differences is a moron.

So you would not say voting for Harris is supporting abortion or reinstating Roe vs Wade unless the supporters likes it.

That is where we disagree.

I like that the Biden-Harris administration produced more oil than the Trump administration.

Being pro-life if I supported Harris then it would be supporting reinstating Roe vs Wade even though I may disagree (the support itself would be for Harris to do as she says she would do).


That is why I am saddened by the number of Christians voting Democrat. Regardless of their reasons their support is a support for the whole policy....not just the bits they like.

Same with you. You cannot give Trump a 70% vote by excluding those evils you don't like. All you get to do is support Trump's election by giving him your vote, which is supporting all he promises to do.

 

[DaveXR650]

So you would not say voting for Harris is supporting abortion or reinstating Roe vs Wade unless the supporters likes it.

If Harris wins there will truly be more abortions than there are now. Therefore they would be supporting abortion. If Trump wins there will be less abortions than there are now, hospitals and medical personnel will be able to not participate, and states who wish to do more to restrict it can do so. This is not rocket science.

In addition, should someone truly feel that Trump will destroy the whole world by causing WWIII and therefore supported Harris, while I would strongly disagree with their wisdom, I would not try to blame them for Harris stand on abortion. In their minds, they would think they were saving lives since getting aborted is equivalent to being nuked. Like I said, history will tell whether they are right or wrong, but they are not responsible morally, for the increased abortions Harris will cause unless they wanted them. If you supported more social workers and less police I might believe you are causing an increase in the murder rate but you are not morally responsible for the increase if your motive was thinking you were helping.

In your case, Jon, I know there are those who condemn you for sitting out. Last week Glen Beck had a guest who basically said people like you were going to be damned to the Lake of Fire for their voting stance. I fully understand your line of thought on this and also of the denominations who do the same. I do not agree with such sweeping judgements toward those who feel like you and I also don't accept the broad implications you try to put on me since I have decided not to sit out.

Your premise is that a good Christian should not vote this time. I think that is ridiculous since we can do some good, and we are legally allowed to do so without any violence or harm to anyone and it violates no Christian principles.

 

[JonC]

If Harris wins there will truly be more abortions than there are now.

Not really. The government does not mandate that people have abortions. It will remain an issue of people wanting them.

More importantly, you are applying a standard to Christians supporting the DNC that you won't to yourself.

You say that you can support Trump without supporting what Trump says he will do (that you can exclude several things from that support).

If true then so can Democrats. They can vote for Harris and exclude pro-abortion from their support just as easily as you can vote Trump and exclude what you don't like from your support.

The truth, however, is neither can exclude things from their vote.

 

[DaveXR650]

Not really. The government does not mandate that people have abortions. It will remain an issue of people wanting them.

Yes, really. Some states right now severely limit abortions. Harris wants a federal law, with no limits, or at least what Roe had, and is so in favor of it she said she will try to eliminate the filibuster in order to get her way. If she does, there will be many more elective abortions than there are now, not to mention the other adverse effects of her election. And she demands you to pay for them too. And by the way, although it still is not mandatory, I see a possible future where the pressure will be on for some poor parent grappling with finding out a child has say Downs Syndrome and wants to have the baby anyway.

More importantly, you are applying a standard to Christians supporting the DNC that you won't to yourself.

No I'm not. On it's own, with no other considerations, the fact is more abortions will be done if Harris wins. All I said was that I will not judge on a moral level, like you are doing to me, if the person really believed that Trump would do something that would cause even a greater loss of life than Harris overall. I wouldn't agree with their logic, but at least I would not judge them morally, or try to say they were being dishonest, just wrong. We are humans.

If true then so can Democrats. They can vote for Harris and exclude pro-abortion from their support just as easily as you can vote Trump and exclude what you don't like from your support.

Sure they can. Except it is a fact that more abortions will occur if Harris wins. If Trump wins, there will be fewer abortions, but you have now someone in office who is theoretically and spiritually problematic. You take your choice.

 

[JonC]

Yes, really. Some states right now severely limit abortions. Harris wants a federal law, with no limits, or at least what Roe had, and is so in favor of it she said she will try to eliminate the filibuster in order to get her way. If she does, there will be many more elective abortions than there are now, not to mention the other adverse effects of her election. And she demands you to pay for them too. And by the way, although it still is not mandatory, I see a possible future where the pressure will be on for some poor parent grappling with finding out a child has say Downs Syndrome and wants to have the baby anyway.

No I'm not. On it's own, with no other considerations, the fact is more abortions will be done if Harris wins. All I said was that I will not judge on a moral level, like you are doing to me, if the person really believed that Trump would do something that would cause even a greater loss of life than Harris overall. I wouldn't agree with their logic, but at least I would not judge them morally, or try to say they were being dishonest, just wrong. We are humans.

Sure they can. Except it is a fact that more abortions will occur if Harris wins. If Trump wins, there will be fewer abortions, but you have now someone in office who is theoretically and spiritually problematic. You take your choice.

You are wrong.
The reason is it will not help is the human heart. It merely gives Christian the illusion they are doing something by supporting one evil instead of another.

There are programs that provide free flights for women seeking an abortion but living where they may be restricted. There are people who will provide medication for abortions, purchased in one state and given free of charge in another. And, obviously, all one has to do is cross an imaginary line into another state.

Reversing Roe vs Wade did nothing to slow abortions (abortions have actually increased slightly with the reversal).


BUT the problem for you remains.

You rightly say that supporting the DNC is supporting reinstating Roe vs Wade regardless of why the support is given.

You wrongly pretend that supporting the GOP is not supporting that agenda regardless of why that support is given.

You have blinders on because you are supporting what you want to reject. You are supporting the normalization of homosexuality and abortion as choice. The reason you support those things is you believe it is a better principle than the alternative.

 

[JonC]

In 2016, one of my major concerns was which party gets to pick the SCOTUS nominees, still is.

That was mine as well.

Like I said, if we vote we have to decide priorities. No matter what, for a Christian to vote will require some compromise (these are secular parties representing secular people).