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Christian Denominations that Don't Vote
- Thread starter robt.k.fall
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I've already gone over the reasons I think there would be a decrease in the real number of abortions. I would also mention that while I agree it will not help the human heart, there is a teaching function in legislation. Light a cigarette in public nowadays and people will react in true fear, far exceeding the real danger. Why? Because they have been taught and in part by legislation. This is why I am not a libertarian.
The increase was because several states acted quickly put it into their state constitutions. Like in Ohio, we put up a good early limitation at I think 6-8 weeks which was first held up by a district court and then we got the stuffing kicked out of us in a statewide vote to put an abortion right into our constitution. There were some other states who have been able to pass some legislation. It gets complicated in that I think the vast majority of people do not want to see babies killed that are viable should they manage to get out but when it is framed without reference to an actual child, as a theoretical choice the feminists, along with our libertarian friends have the votes they need, especially if people like you stay on the sidelines.
You have the blinders on. You can't always get what you want in our system. You do what you can.
But in the past two and a half years since Roe vs Wade has been overturned and the choice has belonged to each state abortions have increased.
Reality has proven your assumptions incorrect.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying you're completely wrong here. Our topic is voting not the court case but I was under the impression that my fellow citizens would want to act once Roe v Wade was overturned. The country has indeed changed, and fast, with massive money coming in from somewhere, and an almost Satanic shift in beliefs over a short period of time. I have been extremely disappointed in the way things turned out in Ohio. I somewhat fear that we have the possibility of a complete blowout in November because of the rapid shift in our country. I just happen to think that is all the more reason we need your vote this time Jon.
I also see this rapid decline in our nation. But I come to a different conclusion (I agree with your post with the exception of the last sentence...I think this is more reason for Christians to refuse to unite with a secular political party and instead "strengthen the things that remain"....be a holy people, united in standing in yet seperate from the World).
Our government is a representative of its people. We see a rapid decline in the morality of the political parties because of a rapid decline in our nation.
The only reason the GOP declined in terms of morals is the people it represents (social and economic conservatives) have declined in terms of its morals. Same with the DNC. It represents a people who have declined.
But you and I view these parties differently also. Where you at least seen to view the GOP as good and the DNC as evil, I view the GOP and DNC as equally evil with different political agendas (each striving for political power). I see both parties as not representing Christ but representing different segments of the World.
Given that the GOP policies on abortion has failed to have any impact on the number of abortions occurring in our nation, I can not think of a moral reason to entertain supporting the GOP any longer.
Since both parties represent the "kingdoms of the world", I have to follow my conscious and abstain from participating in those powers.
I applaud what you hope to accomplish. I simply think your choice about how to accomplish it is wrong.
The GOP policy resulted in no change in the number of abortions. Overturning Roe vs Wade had no effect in the number of abortions. In fact, abortions increased.
But if we actually worked to stop abortions by witnessing and caring for those seeking abortions to change their heart we could have decreased the number of abortions. If each church reached only one person seeking an abortion that would be over 300,000 babies saved.
As Christians we can make the difference thar through politics we cannot.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
This is a common problem in Christian ethics. The parties are both immoral and filled at best with depraved people but not at all morally equivalent. We've gone over all the specifics already but your premise is completely false. You are the one making a mistake because you demand a moral perfection that cannot exist in a human institution.
Once again. This is factually untrue. Abortion was on it's way out, especially in states like Ohio. We have suffered setbacks. Is it because Republicans have suddenly become more evil? Yeah, partly. But it's also because of the campaign to frame it in freedom and libertarian terms with no mention of the life of a baby. Most Republicans are against most abortions period. The policies implied in the amendment passed have not been put in place in Ohio - due to Republican efforts. Everything is not morally equivalent just because it is not as pure as you would like it.
And this is probably the most offensive thing you have said. Where do you get off thinking that someone who votes on election day is by definition not doing all the above things. Do you really think that all the people adopting kids, donating to sonogram programs and pro life clinics where they coordinate all types of assistance, hospital personnel working to keep their institutions pro life and so on are not also voting pro life? Jon, that is the most ludicrous thing I ever heard. You need to get out more and visit some other churches and talk to people.
Moral equivalence depends on the moral standard chosen to measure morality.
The GOP and DNC are equally evil, but the acts of each are not equally immoral.
For example, murdering a grown man innocent of the crime he committed is no less evil than murdering a child (although we may be more empathetic to the latter, the former was the evil Peter attributed to the Jews who called for Jesus' crucifixion).
You are right that this is what the World is - depraved people holding different moral standards, enemies of God. But the reason has to do with the powers instead of the people (like Christians are "of Christ" the political powers are of "the kingdoms of the world").
I never said that people who support a platform that is pro-choice does not also do things that are pro-life.
There are many pro-life Democrats. The DFLA is a pro-life (anti-abortion) Democrat organization.
BUT even though they are pro-life their political support is also pro-choice, just like yours.
As a Christian you rightly find supporting aspects of the Trump agenda offensive. Don't blame me for pointing that out.
There is no difference between the pro-life Democrats supporting Harris and the pro-life Republicans supporting Trump. Neither are able to slow abortion rates, and both "hold their nose" or wear blinders to the things they are actively supporting in order to get political things they want.
This is false. In Ohio abortion may have been "on the way out" of Ohio law. That part is true.
BUT abortion itself was not. IF Ohio banned abortions this would not decrease abortions. It would only end legalized abortions being performed within the state.
A young woman could easily fly, free of cost, and have an abortion performed free of charge in another state. Or drive across the state line. Or have a clinic in New York mail her pills. Or have an illegal abortion.
Abortions in Ohio have increased. An interesting part is that out of state abortions for Ohio residents also substantially increased.
Nothing the GOP has done has slowed abortions.
The problem is that the GOP (and DNC) are powers of the World ("forces of darkness"). Both represent the interest of the World.
The GOP cannot afford to loose the homosexual conservatives and the pro-choice conservatives. They won't loose the Christian conservatives because too many are more political than religious and will vote to oppose the DNC (who wears evil as a badge of pride).
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Here is a little fairy tale I like:
There was a small lamb living among its flock under a shepherd who cared for and guarded the animals. This lamb heard that there were wolves in a neighboring field and, out of curiosity, snuck away for a peek. Looking through the brush boarding the field, sure enough, the lamb saw a very large pack of wolves. The lamb watched as these wolves devoured a large goat. Terrified the little lamb ran towards his own field, but in the process got lost and ended up in a large opening.
In this area the lamb saw other sheep, sheep he did not know. The lamb noticed that they shared many of his characteristics but were a bit different. Eager to investigate the lamb approached one of the males standing atop a stump. The sheep introduced himself and explained that he was the leader of this flock. They had no shepherd but instead looked after one another and fought against the wolves in the adjoining field.
The lamb, realizing the danger the wolves posed to his own flock, asked if he could join their group. The sheep were ecstatic to have a new member and gladly welcomed the little lamb. Day after day the lamb, with his new flock, fought against the wolves and the lamb grew into a fierce warrior.
One day the lamb, no longer a lamb, stumbled into a sheep from his former flock. The sheep ran from the no longer a lamb, apparently startled about something the lamb had not seen. The lamb pursued, overtook and cornered the sheep. “Don’t you remember me?” asked the lamb. The sheep was confused. Yes, he remembered the lamb. But this lamb did not look like a lamb at all. “I remember you” said the sheep, “but why are you among the wolves?”. “Wolves?” asked the lamb. “I am fighting with these sheep against the wolves.”
The sheep replied “But those are not sheep at all. Look beneath their wool coat. Don’t you see the paws, the fangs, the eyes? These are wolves wearing the skin of the sheep they have killed, fighting among the other wolves for dominance of these fields.”
Upon further observation the sheep noted, “And you do not appear to be the lamb I once knew. You have grown fangs, and paws have replaced hooves. You are no sheep at all.”
“Are you not terrified?” asked the lamb who was no longer a lamb. “No” replied the sheep, “I do not need to fear you, or fight you. We are back in my field and I have learned not to stray. My shepherd guards me against all of the wolves.” About that time the shepherd came around the corner and drove the lamb who was no longer a lamb from the pasture.
There was a small lamb living among its flock under a shepherd who cared for and guarded the animals. This lamb heard that there were wolves in a neighboring field and, out of curiosity, snuck away for a peek. Looking through the brush boarding the field, sure enough, the lamb saw a very large pack of wolves. The lamb watched as these wolves devoured a large goat. Terrified the little lamb ran towards his own field, but in the process got lost and ended up in a large opening.
In this area the lamb saw other sheep, sheep he did not know. The lamb noticed that they shared many of his characteristics but were a bit different. Eager to investigate the lamb approached one of the males standing atop a stump. The sheep introduced himself and explained that he was the leader of this flock. They had no shepherd but instead looked after one another and fought against the wolves in the adjoining field.
The lamb, realizing the danger the wolves posed to his own flock, asked if he could join their group. The sheep were ecstatic to have a new member and gladly welcomed the little lamb. Day after day the lamb, with his new flock, fought against the wolves and the lamb grew into a fierce warrior.
One day the lamb, no longer a lamb, stumbled into a sheep from his former flock. The sheep ran from the no longer a lamb, apparently startled about something the lamb had not seen. The lamb pursued, overtook and cornered the sheep. “Don’t you remember me?” asked the lamb. The sheep was confused. Yes, he remembered the lamb. But this lamb did not look like a lamb at all. “I remember you” said the sheep, “but why are you among the wolves?”. “Wolves?” asked the lamb. “I am fighting with these sheep against the wolves.”
The sheep replied “But those are not sheep at all. Look beneath their wool coat. Don’t you see the paws, the fangs, the eyes? These are wolves wearing the skin of the sheep they have killed, fighting among the other wolves for dominance of these fields.”
Upon further observation the sheep noted, “And you do not appear to be the lamb I once knew. You have grown fangs, and paws have replaced hooves. You are no sheep at all.”
“Are you not terrified?” asked the lamb who was no longer a lamb. “No” replied the sheep, “I do not need to fear you, or fight you. We are back in my field and I have learned not to stray. My shepherd guards me against all of the wolves.” About that time the shepherd came around the corner and drove the lamb who was no longer a lamb from the pasture.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I don't know why you keep doing this. Just get on the Ohio Department of Health Web site. They list abortions from 1976. From the early 90's the trend is down. The statistics are tough to analyze I admit. The way they list medically necessary abortions, people coming and going, the way chemical abortions are listed, and the fact that age demographics change over the years which affects the population involved. But your premise, that for some reason it's best to do nothing because you can't achieve everything desired is ridiculous.
Complete baloney. The Democrats prove that themselves. Why do you think all the foundation money is pouring in to pay for abortions and transport to other states if the Republicans were having no effect? Why would Harris be pushing to make us all pay for it - which reverses a previous bill promising that we would not pay for it.
If you go to PEW Research or anyone else with the national statistics the biggest increase was after Roe v Wade and then it peaked around 1990. You are completely wrong, again.
Evil supports evil. The GOP and DNC are fighting for power.
Abortion has increased, even with the overturn of Roe vs Wade. You are wrong. The GOP has made no difference.
I grant that the availability of and unpopular nature of abortion in the 1970's made circumstances different. But the current situation is most Americans support abortion in most cases.
A woman in a state that completely bans abortion can fly for free and recieve a free abortion out of that state.
The GOP has guaranteed the availability of abortion. And now it is mainstream where as in the 1970's it was kept private by most.
All the GOP is doing is promising some they will have abortion avaliable, others that it will protect their alternate lifestyles, and Christians that it is not the wolf Scripture declares it to be.
You are drawing false conclusions by isolating one state. It can work both ways....the abortion rate was the highest under a GOP presidential, and had an upward trend mostly under GOP leadership. One can make statistics look however they want.
The fact is the GOP will not do anything to ban abortion for the US because it would be political suicide and it is just one party within the powers of darkness striving for control.
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To be fair, Harris was actually responding to the pro-life protesters (we can't assime this was to the one person because he shouted that Jesus saves).
BUT this is a good illustration.
Harris does represent a demonic platform. Christians do not, obviously, belong.
On the other side we have Trump endorcing a politically motivated Bible.
It is wolf vs wolf in sheep's clothing.
And, as an "outsider", or "sojourner", it is fascinating and sad to watch. It is not, however, a cause of anxiety.
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I saw this on Fox yesterday. I agree with the commentators. While Harris was addressing the people for their pro-life protests the DNC is anti-Christian.
I wonder; In 18 or so years who would reap the most votes from that 300,000 that were saved? R or D
That is what it is all about isn't it....votes as each party strives to dominate a secular world power.
If they know that they were saved from abortion through our work I would hope they wiukd be pro-life and not vote for either the GOP or the DNC. I would hope they would vote for a pro-life party or through our work be Christians and not be "of the world" when the time came.
I agree Jon. I think more Libs get abortions but if that Lib could be convinced to not get an abortion would the child be more apt to be convinced also, especially if they were told how close they came to not being?