*Christian* Hard Rock Experiment

[Gina B]

No, I haven't read the interviews yet, I will. I'm basing what I'm saying on their website and their music. Kind of an "actions speak louder than words" idea.
You're right. I'm a raging white supremacist who thinks cross-contamination of races is a sin. Sure explains a lot, huh?
For anyone who takes that last comment seriously, it's NOT. Jews, blacks, Asians, all part of my immediate family, my children are bi-racial, and go take a closer look at my pic.

Gina

 

[BoonevillePhil]

Originally posted by Gina:
It's not God honoring, it's garbage. Children are the most honest when it comes to expressing emotions, and this is what emotions this type of music brings out in them.
Adults can filter it and control those types of emotions, but there's enough choice out there you don't have to pick good parts out of the trash, just go for the types of music and groups that aren't trashy to start with!
Gina

[italics mine]

Gina, you incinuated that AA and/or their music was carnal in that you inferred about "this type" of music. If I'm wrong in my assumption, then please define "this type" & how you feel Audio Adrenaline fits into "this type" you are referring to. You also tied "trash" with AA and their music. Furthermore, you also alluded that AA's music was not "God honoring". How can you know what God honors and what He don't? Can you be 100% sure? Or can you only venture an educated guess based on your personal opinions and convictions?

I respect your opinion in that you do not like AA's style. I do not think Audio Adrenaline was responsible for your children's dance gyrations, either. Unless you homeschool your children, you may not know what they pick up at school or at play. But to tie the gestures made by your children to a song by an otherwise very Godly and respected Christian rock band is not only foolish but prejudicial. I again ask anyone who would like a well pray-out as well written discussion on Christian rock or other CCM topics to go to Al Menconi Ministries at http://www.almenconi.com.

I agree that children are most honest in expressing emotions. It's the adults that put the "trashy" spin on them.

Phil Leslie

 

[Gina B]

ok, let me rephrase. I know what God expects of me and how I raise my kids. For us, I am convicted that this song is wrong for us, as are similar ones. I feel personally convicted about that. I do not know they're other songs, I've not looked anything up on the group. That song IMO would be wrong for my family to listen to. On the other hand, POD would be wrong for anyone. I feel biblically convicted about that.
Gina

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Gina:
No, I haven't read the interviews yet, I will. I'm basing what I'm saying on their website and their music. Kind of an "actions speak louder than words" idea.
You're right. I'm a raging white supremacist who thinks cross-contamination of races is a sin. Sure explains a lot, huh?
For anyone who takes that last comment seriously, it's NOT. Jews, blacks, Asians, all part of my immediate family, my children are bi-racial, and go take a closer look at my pic.

Gina

Sorry, didn't mean to insult you. I'm just totally at a loss for your judgements of POD, I was hoping you would explain a little more specifically. Have you really listened to their music? I mean, sat down and listened hard, with the lyric sheet if you can't understand all the lyrics. You mention "actions speak louder then words". WHAT ACTIONS?? Their website has absolutely nothing ungodly or offensive that I've found, however if you could find a specific page and point it to me, I'd be more then happy to look at it. If your Biblically convicted on this, does that mean that you've sat down with POD's lyrics, interviews, ect. and compared it to the Bible? Sorry about the 20 questions, as I said earlier I'm just totally at a loss.
I think it's ironic that we're so gung ho about sending missionaries around the world to preach the Gospel(which I think is a GREAT thing), and then turn around and crucify missionaries in our own back yard preaching God's love to the most Godless population in America. Do we really think that the secular world is so stupid and blind to not see us stabbing our own? I'm sorry, but we're in a spiritual battle for souls, and I'm shocked and saddened that someone would so condemn brothers while at the same time refusing to look at information that is so easily accesible.

God bless,
~JD

 

[Aaron]

Missionaries?

What is your Scriptural criteria for making this judgment?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Now, about judging by appearances:

Clothes are a means of communication as much, if not more than utilitarian. And when a person who has the means to choose his style of clothing, you can be sure he is communicating something.

So, a style of clothing is a valid criteria upon which to judge something.

So then, how should we dress?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Gina:
Oh boo hoo Ransom. In other words, you can't!

No, actually, he's right.

As for the rest who will cry out with the oh so predictable "Pharisee" accusation when I say how I came to my opinion about them

Calm down, Gina. Nobody's called you anything but, in all fairness, you admit that you haven't read their interviews and you haven't said what they've said on their website (other than the one sentence that you misquoted) that bothers you so.

I fully support your right to your opinions. I just wish you would base them on something a little more substantial.

and quote scriptures that don't apply except in the context you want them to,

Actually, I brought up several verses of scripture that do apply.

Jesus didn't go hang out and share the stage with the prostitutes and tax collectors and unsaved,

Actually, I just quoted you several verses that say He did "hang out" with them. I'm not sure what stage you think they were supposed to have shared, though.

he went to PREACH to them and tell them the truth and have them repent of their ways.

How do you know that they don't have a ministry in that area, like the afforementioned Christafari?

Their ways were evil. When people who are supposed Christians share the stage and profits with satanic, perverted groups like Korn there is no way on earth you can tell me they give a flying flip about pleasing the same God I serve.

Sorry you feel that way. Boy am I glad God didn't ask your opinion.

When their idea of a good song is if it makes you feel good,

Actually, that's not what that quote said and I think you know that.

and apparently satanic music makes them feel good,

Satanic? In what way?

do you really think what they put out is going to be Christian songs?

They're not a Christian band, they're Christians in a band. Big difference.

They look like the world,

In what way?

they talk like the world,

You still haven't given any examples. What have they said?

they act like the world

In what way?

guess what? There's not much more evidence needed to prove they ARE. They can mouth the word Christian until they're blue in the face.

Boy, Gina, I sure hope nobody ever judges you as harshly or as unfairly by the same flimsy criteria that you judge them.

I'm NOT God, I don't know their hearts, but guess what?

And yet you judge them, anyway?

What else do you think it is when you call them "pseudo-Christians" than judging their hearts?

On the other hand, POD would be wrong for anyone.

Other than their appearance, the interviews you haven't read, the music you haven't heard and their personal lives which you haven't seen, what do you base this on?

[ December 18, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Phil Leslie:

I recommend Al Menconi Ministries for you skeptics of Christian rock (http://www.almenconi.com). What's even sadder is the fact that I know the members of Audio Adrenaline & have followed them since their inception. They are anything BUT carnal.

I agree. I worked with them at Creation and at a couple of local shows.

Their music's not my style but, for the very short time I worked with them, I found them to be sincere in their faith.

While you're at Al Menconi's website, order his book, "Dear Mr. Gothard" and give it a good read...if you've got the stomach for it.

Phil, I haven't read that book, but I have read enough other things by Menconi to trust his judgement.

To that book I would add: "Don't Stop the Music" by CCM artist-turned Baptist pastor, Dana Key, "All God's Children Got Blue Suede Shoes" by John Fischer and "Too Christian/Too Pagan" by Dick Staub.

 

[Gina B]

Jonathon: Sorry, didn't mean to insult you. I'm just totally at a loss for your judgements of POD, I was hoping you would explain a little more specifically. Have you really listened to their music? I mean, sat down and listened hard, with the lyric sheet if you can't understand all the lyrics.

Gina: No, I've heard and seen enough. Nobody should have to sit down with a lyric sheet and study it to find the Christianity in it. There's plenty of non-Christian groups whose lyrics are harmless or even pretty decent, but the manner of presentation makes it wrong.

Jonathon: You mention "actions speak louder then words". WHAT ACTIONS?? Their website has absolutely nothing ungodly or offensive that I've found, however if you could find a specific page and point it to me, I'd be more then happy to look at it.

Gina: What actions? Profiting from playing with Satanic groups, calling themselves Christians and basing their music on what feels good instead of what is good, go read the whole site.
I did get a good laugh out of the one interview linked above where the guy said the job of the band was to spread the love of God (isn't that sweet), then talked about how disgusted he was with people saying they were doing God's work but then they turn around and make money off of it...isn't that exactly what HE'S doing?

Jonathon: If your Biblically convicted on this, does that mean that you've sat down with POD's lyrics, interviews, ect. and compared it to the Bible? Sorry about the 20 questions, as I said earlier I'm just totally at a loss.

Gina: The bible says to not be a part of the world. Can you honestly look, hear, see who this group is with, and say they're not a part of it?

Jonathon: I think it's ironic that we're so gung ho about sending missionaries around the world to preach the Gospel(which I think is a GREAT thing), and then turn around and crucify missionaries in our own back yard preaching God's love to the most Godless population in America.

Gina: Missionaries? LOL. They SAY they're struggling to walk and talk like Jesus, is that what you mean? Obviously they're having quite a hard time of it! Yeah, representatives of Jesus, Jesus himself, would think Ozzie and Korn were just like, so kewl, and ROCK! Let's all approve of them, play their music, spread the love of Jesus, and be just like them, only we'll say we believe in God and let people know God loves them right after doing so. That's GOTTA be a WONDERFUL way to missionize!

Jonathon: Do we really think that the secular world is so stupid and blind to not see us stabbing our own? I'm sorry, but we're in a spiritual battle for souls, and I'm shocked and saddened that someone would so condemn brothers while at the same time refusing to look at information that is so easily accesible.

Gina: I'm not stabbing my own. I'm angry at morons who claim the same God and say they're doing the garbage they're doing in His name. It makes all of Christianity look shallow.

Mike: quote:
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quote:
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Originally posted by Gina:
Oh boo hoo Ransom. In other words, you can't!
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Mike: No, actually, he's right.

Gina: Bzzt, wrong answer.

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Originally posted by Gina:
As for the rest who will cry out with the oh so predictable "Pharisee" accusation when I say how I came to my opinion about them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike: Calm down, Gina. Nobody's called you anything but, in all fairness, you admit that you haven't read their interviews and you haven't said what they've said on their website (other than the one sentence that you misquoted) that bothers you so.

I fully support your right to your opinions. I just wish you would base them on something a little more substantial.

Gina: The words implied it, and it's obvious where it was headed. I can't copy the whole website, go read through it yourself and see what I saw. It's the whole site.
And I did just read the interviews. Forgive me for not doing it immediately, I did it when I had more time.

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Originally posted by Gina:
and quote scriptures that don't apply except in the context you want them to,
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Mike: Actually, I brought up several verses of scripture that do apply.

Gina: Which ones, and exactly how do they apply?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gina:
Jesus didn't go hang out and share the stage with the prostitutes and tax collectors and unsaved,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike: Actually, I just quoted you several verses that say He did "hang out" with them. I'm not sure what stage you think they were supposed to have shared, though.

Gina: Ok, wrong phrasing, you didn't get the meaning. He went to them, he ate with them, he didn't become a part of them and think they were just really kewl. He called them sinners and he called them to repentance.

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Originally posted by Gina:
he went to PREACH to them and tell them the truth and have them repent of their ways.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike: How do you know that they don't have a ministry in that area, like the afforementioned Christafari?

Gina: Good for them if they do. So far they've only mentioned being there to spread the love of God. (wonder how many fans would stay if they told them hell was real) This music is their ministry according to them. Sorry, I don't see it.

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Originally posted by Gina:
Their ways were evil. When people who are supposed Christians share the stage and profits with satanic, perverted groups like Korn there is no way on earth you can tell me they give a flying flip about pleasing the same God I serve.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike: Sorry you feel that way. Boy am I glad God didn't ask your opinion.

Gina: He did. He do me to try all things and see if they're of Him. Here's a little scenario. POD and KORN are on stage. Jesus comes on the scene. I have a much easier time seeing him getting sick to his stomach than picking up a guitar and joining in. What do you think the reaction would be?

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Originally posted by Gina:
When their idea of a good song is if it makes you feel good,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike: Actually, that's not what that quote said and I think you know that.

Gina: That's what it said on the site and that idea was re-emphasized in one of the interviews. Have you read the site and the interviews? If you have you'll see it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gina:
and apparently satanic music makes them feel good,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike: Satanic? In what way?

Gina: Go do some research on the bands they've played with.

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Originally posted by Gina:
do you really think what they put out is going to be Christian songs?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike: They're not a Christian band, they're Christians in a band. Big difference.

Gina: You're right. VERY big difference. Go back and think about what you typed and tell me what you might find wrong with that sentence.

As far as looking, talking, and acting like the world, read everything I've written so far and continue looking at the site. If you don't get it you don't get it, but why do I get the feeling you might just be playing dumb? You have eyes, ears, and a sense of what Godliness bring out in a person, right? You honestly believe that what they put out is a result of Godliness?

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Originally posted by Gina:
guess what? There's not much more evidence needed to prove they ARE. They can mouth the word Christian until they're blue in the face.
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Mike: Boy, Gina, I sure hope nobody ever judges you as harshly or as unfairly by the same flimsy criteria that you judge them.

Gina: I hope they do. If I'm giving off false impressions of what Jesus is like with my life and actions CALL ME ON IT, judge me, so I can fix it.

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Originally posted by Gina:
I'm NOT God, I don't know their hearts, but guess what?
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Mike: And yet you judge them, anyway?

What else do you think it is when you call them "pseudo-Christians" than judging their hearts?

Gina: Yes, I judge them anyway. Why shouldn't I? Is it politically incorrect to say wrong it wrong? Well yeah, it is, but that's the world's correctness.

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Originally posted by Gina:
On the other hand, POD would be wrong for anyone.
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Mike: Other than their appearance, the interviews you haven't read, the music you haven't heard and their personal lives which you haven't seen, what do you base this on?

Gina: Ok, now I've read the interviews. Who says I didn't read the lyrics or listen to anything by them? No, I don't know theiir personal lives, I don't know the personal lives of the abortionists either, but I know they're wrong. No, I'm not comparing them to murderers, I'm making a point.

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Originally posted by Gina:
On the other hand, POD would be wrong for anyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than their appearance, the interviews you haven't read, the music you haven't heard and their personal lives which you haven't seen, what do you base this on?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Gina:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Mike: Actually, I brought up several verses of scripture that do apply.

Gina: Which ones, and exactly how do they apply?

Go back and read them. They're self evident.

Gina: Ok, wrong phrasing, you didn't get the meaning. He went to them, he ate with them, he didn't become a part of them and think they were just really kewl.

So in all the time He was with them, there was no fellowship? No conversation? He didn't try to relate to them on any sort of human level?

He called them sinners and he called them to repentance.

True, but did he do it like some awway salesman who's interested in nothing but the sale or did He get to know them on a personal level?

I believe He did.

[quoet]Gina: Good for them if they do. So far they've only mentioned being there to spread the love of God.</font>[/QUOTE]What??? Christians spreading the love of God??? How dare they!

(wonder how many fans would stay if they told them hell was real)

I don't know all of their songs, but I'm told that they do have a couple of songs about Hell.

This music is their ministry according to them. Sorry, I don't see it.

Could it possibly because God hasn't sent them to minister to you?

He did. He do me to try all things and see if they're of Him.

We're all called to do that, but He never asked us what ministries He should ordain or who he should call to follow Him.

Here's a little scenario. POD and KORN are on stage. Jesus comes on the scene...What do you think His reaction would be

I have no idea and I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to guess.

I have a much easier time seeing him getting sick to his stomach than picking up a guitar and joining in.

Jesus plays guitar? Cool!

That's what it said on the site and that idea was re-emphasized in one of the interviews. Have you read the site and the interviews? If you have you'll see it.

You're right. We were looking at two different quotes.

I would tend to agree with him, though.

Go do some research on the bands they've played with.

We're not talking about bands they've toured with, we're talking about them. In what way is their music "Satanic"?

You're right. VERY big difference. Go back and think about what you typed and tell me what you might find wrong with that sentence.

OK. Thought about it. What's wrong with it?

As far as looking, talking, and acting like the world, read everything I've written so far and continue looking at the site. If you don't get it you don't get it,

Oh, no, I understand what you're saying. I just don't understand how you come to the conclusion that it's "like the world" or why it's acceptable to judge someone by their outward apearance.

You have eyes, ears, and a sense of what Godliness bring out in a person, right? You honestly believe that what they put out is a result of Godliness?

I honestly don't know. I don't know their hearts and I don't know where they're coming from and I don't think I'd be so arrogant as to guess.

They can mouth the word Christian until they're blue in the face.

...but? C'mon, say it. You know you want to.

I hope they do.

No you don't. Believe me, I've been there. I've had people do it to me. I've even had people I trusted do it right here on these boards.

If I'm giving off false impressions of what Jesus is like with my life and actions

You are doing that when you judge brothers in Christ by such flimsy criteria.

Yes, I judge them anyway. Why shouldn't I?

There are times when we ae called to judge but the Bible says that we should judge righteous judgements.

Is it politically incorrect to say wrong it wrong?

No, it's morally wrong to judge something wrong that God doesn't call wrong and may very well have ordained for His glory.

Who says I didn't read the lyrics or listen to anything by them?

You implied it.

No, I don't know theiir personal lives, I don't know the personal lives of the abortionists either, but I know they're wrong. No, I'm not comparing them to murderers, I'm making a point.

And it's not a valid one because we know that abortion is murder and that murder is always wrong.

In this case, it hasn't been demonstrated that they've done anything wrong other than the fact that you don't like the way they look and you don't like that, as musicians, they actually have to go out where the music is.

 

[Gina B]

Ok, since a number appear to dislike how my method of judging whether someone seems to be of God or not (ie by looks, actions, etc.), tell me how you do it.
Is everything great and wonderful and most likely following in the footsteps of Jesus as long as there's not a specific "thou shalt not" verse on the action in the bible?
Gina

 

[Refreshed]

Mike,

Maybe we should get a working definition of what the world is, what it is not, and what the Bible says about seperation from worldly things.

Since you seem to have a grasp on what is worldly and what is not worldly, and you are convinced that we are wrong where we draw the lines, why don't you go first.

Give us a definition of "worldly" or "world" when used in a biblical context such as is found in:

John 15:18-19
Romans 12:2
I Cor. 1:21,27
I Cor. 3:19
II Cor. 6:17
James 4:4
II Peter 2:20
I John 3:13
I John 4:5

Describe to us what it means to be "unequally yoked":
II Cor 6:14

Thanks,

Jason

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Refreshed:
Mike,

Maybe we should get a working definition of what the world is, what it is not, and what the Bible says about seperation from worldly things.

I've been asking that since day one in this and other threads. So far, none of the people who are always talking about "of the world" has been able to define it.

Since you seem to have a grasp on what is worldly and what is not worldly,

No, what is worldly or not is subjective. I only have a grasp on what my opinion of being worldly is.

and you are convinced that we are wrong

I never said any such thing.

I don't know whather your wrong or not because every time I ask how you define "of the world" or how you came to the conclusion that something or other is of the world, you ignore. So, I really have no way of knowing whether you're wrong or not, since you won't answer the question.

why don't you go first.

Since I asked first, why don't you guys answer my questions first. Seems only fair.

Describe to us what it means to be "unequally yoked":
II Cor 6:14

To be, as Jesus would say, "a partaker with them in their evil deeds.

 

[Ransom]

Gina said:

Oh boo hoo Ransom. In other words, you can't!

No, in other words, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the accusation. This is the foundation of the presumption of innocence. Who must prove his case in a court of law? The prosecutor.

The presumption of guilt is completely backwards. If we let it stand, anyone gets to say any outrageus things they want and unless we can prove them specifically wrong, we're all bound to believe them. "God told me to murder abortionists." "I was abducted by aliens." "POD is composed of pseudo-Christians." And so forth.

If I spent time refuting every moronic statement ever made in my hearing so that I could disbelieve with a clear conscience, I would have no time for such important things as work, personal hygiene, and girls.

So again: if you are going to call POD "pseudo-Christian," it is up to you to back up your claims. Being believed is a privilege, not a right, sorry.

[ December 18, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Gina:
Ok, since a number appear to dislike how my method of judging whether someone seems to be of God or not (ie by looks, actions, etc.), tell me how you do it.

The first thing I would do is to ask myself if I'm judging them on an essential or non-essential of the faith? If it's a non-essential, as in this case, then I would let it go.

Actually, this in itself should be enough to stop 99% of the examples of legalism we're forced to wade through.

I would ask myself if God could be moving in a way that He doesn't feel it necessary to share with me and I would examine the Bible to see how others acted in similar situations or to see what God has to say about whatever it is they're doing.

Is everything great and wonderful and most likely following in the footsteps of Jesus as long as there's not a specific "thou shalt not" verse on the action in the bible?

Not necessarily, but if there's no commandment against it and there's no overriding principle against, then I can't think of what the problem might be.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Refreshed:

John 15:18-19

I agree, inasmuch as the Gospel is a stumbling block.

Romans 12:2

I agree.

I Cor. 1:21

I think this is expounded upon in verse 23.

I Corinthians 1:27

Actually, I would think vv 27-28 would be in favor of the idea that God might use people or things other than what the religiously correct might expect.

I Cor. 3:19

I agree.

II Cor. 6:17

Come out from among who? Be seperate from what? What "unclean thing"?

James 4:4

Again, I would ask you to define "friendship with the world".

II Peter 2:20

This chapter is talking about false prophets and those who follow them so I don't think it applies here.

I John 3:13

See John 15:18-19.

I John 4:5

Talking about false spirits.

Describe to us what it means to be "unequally yoked":
II Cor 6:14

It means to be, as Jesus said, "partakers with them in their evil deeds".

 

[Gina B]

Ransom, you accused me of being wrong. Burden of proof is on you.

As for the rest of you, if you don't get the principal behind why this stuff is wrong then there's not much more I can say, is there? Your call, your choice, I'll rest in the knowledge that *if* I'm in error it was most definitely on the side of right.

Gina

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Gina:
I'll rest in the knowledge that *if* I'm in error it was most definitely on the side of right.

Except that you may be slandering God's workers and causing harm to the Body of Christ.

If you are wrong and you persist in your condemnation, you are doing the work of the evil one.

 

[Ransom]

Gina said:

Ransom, you accused me of being wrong. Burden of proof is on you.

Sorry, doesn't work that way either.

 

[Gina B]

Slandering God's workers...hmmm. I don't think so. One isn't going to have to jump through hoops to find the witness of Christ in a person doing His work.
What's acceptable and decent for a Christian as defined by Christians today is DISGUSTING. This shouldn't even have to be a discussion, it's easy enough to see it for what it is.
Why should I take my kids or myself to a church that seeks to fit in with the world by playing and or condoning rock music and groups like this? Do you really think it's nice and pleasant to have little kids in church dancing to this stuff? What's next? Nevermind, I know the answer.
BTW, if it's good enough to have in your home it's good enough to have in church. Do you really want this stuff there? Are you really comfortable giving it to your kids?
Gina