Christian Head Covering

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by katie:
And how is a perfect stranger supose to know you are christian without talking to you unless your wearing a chritian tee shirt or something?

I have had people approach our table at a restaurant after we've prayed and ask us what "church" we belonged to. When I reply "Baptist," most say, "That's what I thought."

Two years ago in Oklahoma City, I was filling my van up with gas. The man filling his car next to me approached me out of the blue and asked me, "Are you a preacher?" I was wearing just a shirt and tie at the time.

Why didn't he ask if I was an attorney? Why didn't he ask if I was a politician? Hopefully it was because the Holy Spirit was able to work through me to speak to this man.

When my family moved to southern Illinois to accept an Assistant Pastor position, we were in Walmart one afternoon. My wife and all four of my kids were there. As we were standing in line to check out, I noticed a young man and his wife behind us looking at us and smiling.

I finally spoke to the man and said, "How are you today?" or something along those lines. He asked me, "Do you folks attend Pastor Rick Dawson's church?" I answered, "Yes, I am his Assistant Pastor." The man turned to his wife and said, "I told you."

I was wearing blue jeans and a polo shirt; my boys were as well; my wife was wearing a dress or a skirt, and my daughters were wearing culottes.

Why didn't he ask if we were Pentecostal? Why didn't he ask if we were another denomination? Again, I hope it is because the Holy Spirit was evident in our lives.

Unless you're dressed in a manner that would be unbecoming a Christian, people should be able to see Christ in you at all times by the way you walk, talk, act, and the very countenance on your face. There is a difference.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (KJV)

 

[donnA]

I have had people approach our table at a restaurant after we've prayed and ask us what "church" we belonged to. When I reply "Baptist," most say, "That's what I thought."

Thats becasue you were praying, I wonder if she shops and is constanlty with her head bowed praying so that people might think she is a christian. How does she see what she is buying?
I think these two things are not realted at all.
My point is that unless you do aomething to draw attention to the fact you are a chritian, people don't automatically assume.

 

[donnA]

Granny, I ahve that list for you now, and yes I went bac and reread everything. Can't believe I missed the post where I was accused of being a lesbian. I am about to send these to you if you want them.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Pastor Bob,
Thank you for that word of wisdom that it is the Holy Spirit that causes these things to happen.

HCL

 

[donnA]

Granny if you'll check your pm's I just sent it to you.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
It's a sad day when a few searching ladies can't quietly talk together on the things that are important to them at the moment without fearing rebuttal or worse, censorship.

Censorship or simple containment? This subject has managed to monopolize three different forums on this board. In the ladies' forum alone, it was brought up three separate times in September alone, as I noticed when I started cleaning out the files. You ladies know who you are. "Quietly talking together" is certainly possible by emails. Taking over forums and informing the rest of us that we are somehow less obedient, less feminine, or somehow just less close to God because we are not agreeing with you is NOT 'quietly talking together.'

You are more than welcome to quietly talk together. One forum would be nice. Once a month max on a new thread would also be nice. There are plenty of other topics going on in the women's forum -- or at least there used to be. A number of women have left because of this permanent preoccupation with clothing. They also have better things to spend time and attention on.

It's okay to talk about practically anything else of non-importance, from peeling an onion to what's in your bed, but things that are found in the Bible are off-grounds if it goes against the grain of the majority.

That is patently untrue and unfair of you to say. Anyone looking at the women's forum can see there are a great many things discussed. And, after all, as has been advised those of us who are sick to the core of the clothing threads, if you are not interested, stay away from the threads that don't interest you. Some of those threads, by the way, were started in a determined effort to get ANYTHING but the clothing threads to the tops of the forums!

I don't know why everyone who wasn't interested in the headcovering issue or dress issue or hair issue would have just politely stayed away from the topics...or at least not been so vindictive.

You were allowed total control of several threads on these subjects in the women's forum in the last few months. We stayed away. I closed one after six pages of you ladies chatting to yourselves and congratulating yourselves on your decisions to wear dresses only and use head cloths. No one bothered you. So please do not play the martyr here. I'm not being vindictive, by the way, but I am disgusted. You want to talk Bible? Go read and comment on the 'hair' thread that three of us researched in an effort to find out what the Bible was actually saying about this subject. What I have noticed is that when Bible itself is being discussed and not Bible commentaries, you ladies beat a hasty retreat or act like the thread does not even exist. Try discussing actual Bible if that is what you want to do, but don't accuse us of not discussing it just because you don't want to be involved when it doesn't go your way.

I don't think I read where anyone who wears a headcovering, dresses only, or has long hair, has told others they must do it.

No, not directly. You have simply implied that we are not obedient to God, not as spiritual as you, not listening to the Holy Spirit, and that a number of us may be of questionable sexual orientation. So, of course, the idea is that if we want to be obedient to God, spiritual, listening to the Holy Spirit, and real women, we will all be like you. The implication and logic really has not escaped us!

Perhaps this should have been discussed down in the "All Other Discussions" area where the pentecostals/apostolics/holiness folks hang out. Even tho' they err in doctrine, etc, I sometimes find them to be a little more compassionate.

Do us all a favor -- don't spread this to more forums...

 

[donnA]

I was very upset last night, and didn't want to bother my husband with it, but when we layed down for the night, he asked me what was wrong with me. I broke down crying saying what if I'm not a good wife after all. My husband assured me I am a good wife to him(and he should know better then people on the BB), he is very pleased with me as his wife, and that it has nothing to do with me either covering my head or not,whuch has nothing to do with being a good wife,and that I should stop listening to people who didn't know anything.
So I am going to take my husbands advice, you all aren't going to ever make me feel like I am less somehow becasue I am not you, as if I am an unfit wife because you say so.

 

[donnA]

and that a number of us may be of questionable sexual orientation.

Helen, I wondered how many others saw that and understood what was being said, that and the fact scripture was being to twisted so as to not even sound like the bible anymore. I can't believe the mods in that forum didn't delete it.

 

[Gina B]

Whoa there Granny! I really needed to know how to peel that onion!
Now, as far as the women's forums are concerned, isn't that what it's about? All that "fluff" is part of our lives. Cooking, tending babies, dealing with children, sewing, cleaning, keeping out tempers, blah blah blah.
There's plenty of other forums for serious bible discussion on specific issues, but as far as the women's forum, I've tended to see it where we discuss women type of stuff!

If it gets to needed serious biblical study wouldn't it be better to put it out on the other forums so the men can help guide us?
Gina

 

[Don]

My point is that unless you do aomething to draw attention to the fact you are a chritian, people don't automatically assume.

And my point is: Why do you have to do something to draw attention to the fact you're a Christian?

If you don't understand that question, give it some thought for a while before responding.

 

[Don]

To the person who made such a cruel innuendo about Katie's and other people's sexuality:

I publicly rebuke you, you Pharisee. That kind of legalistic, manipulative **** has no place in Christianity, much less among Baptists.

I pray you're appropriately ashamed of your un-Christian attitude and behavior.

[ December 02, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: webmaster ]

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

May I pose a few questions?

1. Why do so many of you assume something when it's not said...like we say that women who wear headcoverings shouldn't? The fact is that we haven't, we've simply been defending the fact that it truly doesn't need to be done...If you feel that makes you more modest, then continue to, but don't twist scripture, write in such a way as to place guilt, and indirectly tell us that we are to wear them as well...same goes for long hair and dresses only.

2. Why is it the assumption that it is what you wear that makes people ask questions? Don't you know that actions speak louder than what you wear?

3. Why do some women feel the need to start two, three, or even four threads of the same nature at the same time? One will suffice!

~Teresa~

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
I don't think I read where anyone who wears a headcovering, dresses only, or has long hair, has told others they must do it...

I don't wear a headcovering or dresses, nor do I have long hair. I'm just using Granny's sentence to make a point. I think many people, on both sides, have framed this debate incorrectly - that it is a matter of personal conviction. It is rather a matter of what the Bible says. In I Corinthians 11, does the Apostle Paul say that a woman should have long hair and wear a head covering? If he does, then a woman ought to have long hair and a head covering! Her personal conviction should be what the Bible says. Does the Apostle Paul mean that it does not matter if a woman has long hair or a head covering? If he does, then it doesn't matter! We ought to just let all do as they please and keep quiet about it otherwise. Same goes for men and uncovered heads according to this passage. It is a matter of what the Bible says, not a matter of our subjectivity and how we feel about the matter. All the talk of results or lack of results that one gets from wearing or not wearing the headcovering is totally irrelevant.

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:

.....I think many people, on both sides, have framed this debate incorrectly - that it is a matter of personal conviction. It is rather a matter of what the Bible says...Her personal conviction should be what the Bible says....It is a matter of what the Bible says, not a matter of our subjectivity and how we feel about the matter. All the talk of results or lack of results that one gets from wearing or not wearing the headcovering is totally irrelevant.

True, and well-put. But I would add in this issue, as in many others, finding out what the Bible really says is not as easy or fast as we often would like it to be. Two equally sincere Christians can pray, read, and come to different conclusions. Witness the diversity on the BB.
One or BOTH of them may be wrong. We need patience with each other.

(Please don't read post-modernism into my statements. The Bible is Truth, and God does lead Christians.)

Karen

 

[Karen]

I have thought about why some issues such as this are more controversial.

Reminds me of when I first got married. We got along fine with both sets of parents, but we were excited to be married and be on our own. We had known each other quite a while and had been engaged quite a while. Thought we knew lots about each other, and we did.
Yet, it was the small, daily things, not "big" things that caused the most adjustments.
My husband insisted for quite a while on putting the peanut butter in the refrigerator. And he didn't even eat peanut butter, I did. And as I "clearly" pointed out to him, my mother NEVER put the peanut butter in the refrigerator.

So your eyes are glazing now, and you are saying, "What's the point?" You can be on the BB quite a while and think you have gotten to "know"
people, but it is on issues that are interesting but really don't affect you. Whether or not Methuselah died in the flood was very interesting to me, but it doesn't really "affect" me. I go to church with amillenialists, pre-tribbers, and those who don't have a clue.

But when you start examining one's manner of dress, you are addressing intimate daily, personal details that the person rarely does in a vacuum. A great many of my clothes, for example, have been given to me by my mother and mother-in-law and fit right in at my church. It is easier on these issues to feel more personally attacked.
And to feel that one's great church and pastor are being attacked.

In my case, I guess I really do have a thicker skin than I used to. I take to heart the original BB logo that said, "Your views WILL be challenged."

P.S. I don't wear head coverings. Some in my church have from time to time. No one makes fun of them. A number of women wear pants there too.

Karen

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by baptistforever:
May I pose a few questions?

2. Why is it the assumption that it is what you wear that makes people ask questions? Don't you know that actions speak louder than what you wear?

~Teresa~

Hello Teresa,
I will answer this question as best as I can.

I think you are absolutley correct to say that the actions of God's children are of prime importance. For instance I once knew a young lady who was rather mean to me who was wearing a Christian t-shirt. It was confusing to say the least. She had this shirt on with a Bible verse but was being very mean.

Now, the same goes for the headcovering. If I or anyone else am claiming that the headship veiling is a symbol of God's created order of headship and I am out of order in my actions towards my husband or any other man than I have become a hypocrite and I will certainly not bring glory to God.

And for me personally I was asked by strangers about Jesus much more after wearing the veiling. Also the treatment by men changed. If you would like me to share more I would love to communicate with you through pm's because I do not want to make too much out of what has happened to me.

Because I was reminded this morning by Pastor Bob that it is the Holy Spirit that does the work, not me and all the glory and honor goes to Jesus Christ.

To rlvaugn,

Perhaps you are correct in that you have stated sharing one persons results with the headship veiling does not make the Bible any clearer to anyone. I think that is a good point. But, my motivation in sharing that was for those who are seeking in this area.

For instance when I was seeking at first I was literally DEATHLY AFRAID of what others would think of me. I was absolutely frightened at the prospect that I would stand out this way. But, when I read other ladies testimonies about how the Lord blessed them it helped me to have courage to do it myself. Their sharing blessed me and helped me to see that I could do this too and God would help me.

HCL

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Dear HCL~You have been a blessing to me and while I could have emailed you for info, that would not have helped the ones who are lurking/searching. Thank you for hanging in there and not laughing at my silly questions.

[ December 02, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

May I pose one more question?
HCL, you said that many people have just come up to you asking you about Jesus after you started wearing the head veiling, here's the question: Is it you wearing the head veiling that is making people, or is it that your actions changed while you wore the head veiling?

~Teresa~

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Teresa,
In truth, only God knows that for sure. Hopefully, I have changed too my inside which is most important to reflect what the headship veiling stands for and serves as a reminder to keep ME in check.

HCL

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Karen:
...finding out what the Bible really says is not as easy or fast as we often would like it to be. Two equally sincere Christians can pray, read, and come to different conclusions...One or BOTH of them may be wrong.

I completely agree, Karen. Perhaps no one has considered that each side may be wrong on the issue and that there is a third way we haven't considered.

I take to heart the original BB logo that said, "Your views WILL be challenged."

We all need to take that to heart. BTW, I am glad that you mentioned that. I was looking for that statement yesterday. Has it been removed? If it's on here somewhere, can someone tell me where?

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
...But, my motivation in sharing that was for those who are seeking in this area...

HCL, perhaps I overemphasized to make a point. I don't mean to chide anyone for giving testimonies, nor do I think testimonies are worthless. It's just that I have seen some trend of "it's right for me because I'm convicted about it, but it's ok for you not to if you're not convicted." That almost sounds like the truth is whatever we want it to be. When I say, "All the talk of results or lack of results that one gets from wearing or not wearing the headcovering is totally irrelevant," I mean totally irrelevant to determining whether covering or no covering is right or wrong. I don't mean totally irrelevant absolutely to everything. But the fact is, if Paul's meaning is that a Christian lady should wear a headcovering, then every Christian lady should wear a headcovering. If he means that a Christian lady should wear it at times when she is praying or worshipping publicly, then every Christian lady should wear it when she is praying or worshipping publicly. If he means something cultural that is not applicable today in our culture, then it is not applicable to any Christian lady today in our culture. But, going back to what Karen said, it seems that the difference of opinion is in interpreting what Paul said.

May I add that we all should exhibit Christian charity to those who have sincerely studied this and have come to different conclusions.