Christian Hymns and Songs

[BobRyan]

Oh brother, how many times do we need to go over this? I will say it only once more, the argument is with your application of the text, as is ANYONE's argument. Surely you understand this in a debate setting

Well in this case you missed it.

I quoted the texts without comment - except for this statement about the "obvious" just before the list of texts -- "Christ contrasts those who are ready for the 2nd coming - vs those who are not." - if that comment is what you want to complain about - then say something about it - (but if that comment generates all the noise - then I would say that nit picking has just gone to a whole new level here on Baptist Board - )

I am afraid that leaves you with no place to go as an excuse for your objection to the texts I simply quoted without comment - which is why (obviously) I stated that when you complain about that sort of post - your argument is strictly "with the text".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But surely you understand that when the Christian debates "Faith Alone" what is being discussed is the "how" one is justified before God (i.e. saved, regenerated, born again) which "Faith Alone" declares it is "by grace through faith without works (without any performance of righteousness) . .

Now - the thread is BACK to the subject of how the lost person becomes justified. This seems like a bait-and-switch game.

I notice that the OP is asking once again how the lost person obtains salvation. Or is the question to find songs about the saved person "obtaining salvation" as if the saved have the same view of needing to obtain salvation as the lost?

No questions asked in the OP, however, there is an implied challenge to the "saved by grace AFTER ye do all that you can" camp.

Since there is no "camp" that says that the lost is "saved by grace AFTER they do all that they can" - you are back to talking about how the already justified - get "justified again".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Well in this case you missed it.

I quoted the texts without comment - except for this statement about the "obvious" just before the list of texts -- "Christ contrasts those who are ready for the 2nd coming - vs those who are not." - if that comment is what you want to complain about - then say something about it - (but if that comment generates all the noise - then I would say that nit picking has just gone to a whole new level here on Baptist Board - )

I am afraid that leaves you with no place to go as an excuse for your objection to the texts I simply quoted without comment - which is why (obviously) I stated that when you complain about that sort of post - your argument is strictly "with the text".

in Christ,

Bob

That would be a good point, except for the fact that the scripture you posted was in response to the ongoing argument of justified by grace verses justified by performance. In fact, you quoted me on this when you posted the verses. Thus, you are in the camp of justified AFTER ye do all ye can do".

Now - the thread is BACK to the subject of how the lost person becomes justified. This seems like a bait-and-switch game.

It has always been about how the lost are justified.

Since there is no "camp" that says that the lost is "saved by grace AFTER they do all that they can" - you are back to talking about how the already justified - get "justified again".

No, that would be your position. You believe the lost get saved by grace through faith, but then must keep themselves saved by performance. If you believe a person can lose their justification by grace through faith then that is not "Faith Alone' and is saying exactly as "by grace are ye saved AFTER ye do all ye can do" - No difference at all. You are simply trying to separate yourself from Moroni on this issue when there is no difference at all.

 

[steaver]

Let's see if I can clear this up so everyone understands the two positions;

1) "Faith Alone" is the doctrine which states that a person/sinner is justified/saved by grace through faith APART from any works however those works may be defined, i.e. practicing righteousness, works of righteousness, works of the law, deeds of the law, good deeds, good works, commandment keeping, obedience to the Law, keeping the commandments, etc, etc, I think you get it!

2) "Faith plus works" is the doctrine which states that a person/sinner is justified/saved by grace through faith AFTER they do all they can do, i.e. practicing righteousness, works of righteousness, works of the law, deeds of the law, good deeds, good works, commandment keeping, obedience to the Law, keeping the commandments, etc, etc, I think you get it!

"Faith Alone" believers believe that a person's works (i.e. see above) are an attribute flowing out of a person because of having been justified by Faith Alone. The works are the outward expression of an inward change. A true believer saved by grace through faith WILL have these works.

"Faith plus Works" believers believe that a person may have works BUT if those works are found lacking for any period of time the person becomes "lost again", thus, the works along with faith plays a part in the justification of the sinner. In fact, the works, or lack thereof, cancels out the grace of God. This doctrine is found taught among many denominations as well as the Mormon churches.

 

[steaver]

Just a p.s. - There is a third camp which believes salvation is by "Faith Alone" but that can be forfeited not by lack of "works" but by simply choosing not to believe anymore. But that is a OSAS topic and I have one question for them, which no one could ever answer.......see signature....:wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

The devils believe and tremble. And prior to being fallen angels - they knew for "absolute truth" about the Love of God - same for Adam and Eve. They also knew the absolute truth of the matter about their Creator - prior to their fall.

 

[BobRyan]

That would be a good point, except for the fact that the scripture you posted was in response to the ongoing argument of justified by grace verses justified by performance.

I pointed to the scriptures that speak of sanctification. And you keep spinning sanctification back into "re-justification".

. Thus, you are in the camp of justified AFTER ye do all ye can do".

That is only the case for those who spin sanctification back into "justification all over again". I never claim to do that when the sanctification texts come up.

No, that would be your position. You believe the lost get saved by grace

That much is true - I do believe that the lost are saved by Grace. At the moment of the New Birth - they are justified. That is the starting point for Sanctification and the ending point for living life as a lost person.

If you believe a person can lose their justification by grace through faith then that is not "Faith Alone'

They enter through faith - they remain through faith. When they turn from God - they are lost. Which is why God's message to the save saint is .... (wait for it).... "you stand only by your faith... you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

You know - the texts that you might wish to sign my name after - as you avoid them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The devils believe and tremble.

That's the point I was making to Trevor, not all "believe" is "regenerated believe".

I pointed to the scriptures that speak of sanctification.

Thank you for finally agreeing with me. As I keep saying, this thread is not about Sanctification, but you keep posting scripture about Sanctification in a thread debating Justification. Now do you see?

They enter through faith - they remain through faith. When they turn from God - they are lost. Which is why God's message to the save saint is .... (wait for it).... "you stand only by your faith... you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

How bout you define "turning from God" for us? Does this mean stopping to believe? Does this mean disobedience to commandments although you still believe? Does this mean practicing sin although you still believe? Well, I will let you define your position. And careful not to post Sanctification scriptures, we are looking for Justification scriptures in this thread.

 

[steaver]

Since there is no "camp" that says that the lost is "saved by grace AFTER they do all that they can" - you are back to talking about how the already justified - get "justified again".

in Christ,

Bob

Actually, if you recall, E7, whom you have been cheering on in agreement with thread after thread on this subject, declared the Mormons doctrine which states "by grace ye are saved AFTER ye do all that ye can do" is correct and in agreement with his preaching on this subject.....http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=88731

So yes, there is such a camp, and you have been defending the Moroni doctrine just as much as E7.

 

[BobRyan]

The Moroni doctrine is the product of a Baptist by the name of Samuel Spalding whose widow sold the book of Mormon manuscript to Joseph Smith - who then claimed that an angel "Moroni" came up with it instead of the Baptist - Samuel Spalding.

Are you sure you really want to keep going there?? I find it odd that you are looking to link that "Moroni" doctrine to someone or some group as if it is going to help your case.

Secondly you continue to use circular reasoning to support your suggestion that sanctification is really justification if the Bible is correct when it talks about someone becoming "fallen from grace" and "severed from Christ". You support your spin - by simply "claiming it" each time the Bible case comes up showing that a person can have forgiveness revoked (Matt 18) or can be come "Fallen from Grace, severed from Christ". You simply respond with "well then justified by works" -- yet this is your spin you have yet to prove that it has any Bible support.

Blaming this on your baptist authored story about the angel Moroni is not helping your case nearly as much as you may have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, if you recall, E7, whom you have been cheering on in agreement with thread after thread on this subject,

I agree with E-7 that the Bible teaching on "Severed from Christ, fallen from grace" Gal 5:4 is to be accepted rather than clinging to the man-made tradition of OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

I also agree with E-7's pattern of providing text after text showing the case to be true.

I readily agree that we are in agreement on a number of points. But that does not mean that every solution every response from E-7 is the same as a response from me on a given question. Each person gets to author their own posts without having them attributed to someone else.

Just as you might agree with some ideas that the Baptist Samuel Spalding came up with - but not every single one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I agree with E-7 that the Bible teaching on "Severed from Christ, fallen from grace" Gal 5:4 is to be accepted rather than clinging to the man-made tradition of OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

I also agree with E-7's pattern of providing text after text showing the case to be true.

in Christ,

Bob

The applications may be true for you and E7 in your own minds, you are not alone in that respect. Not until you both understand the how and why of Justification will you ever understand "Eternal Life". "Free" "Gift" "Eternal" are terms that seem so blunt and clear to comprehend, yet so many want to add their own performance into God's plan. IMHO, it is satan who has bewitched even many of the saved by grace.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Nothing can separate
Even if I ran away
Your love never fails

I know I still make mistakes
But You have new mercies for me everyday
Your love never fails

Chorus:
You stay the same through the ages
Your love never changes
There may be pain in the night but joy comes in the morning

And when the oceans rage
I don't have to be afraid
Because I know that You love me
Your love never fails

Verse 2:
The wind is strong and the water's deep
But I'm not alone here in these open seas
Cause Your love never fails

The chasm is far too wide
I never thought I'd reach the other side
But Your love never fails

Bridge:
You make all things work together for my good

I think that works, right?

P.S.
I fit into the first camp mentioned in the OP. I don't believe salvation is attained through works.
But I'm not prepared to debate on this one just yet as the debate goes over my head a little, so I'm just here to share songs about God's grace.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Who Am I, by Casting Crowns:

Who am I, that the Lord of all the earth
Would care to know my name,
Would care to feel my hurt?
Who am I, that the Bright and Morning Star
Would choose to light the way
For my ever wandering heart?

Not because of who I am
But because of what You've done.
Not because of what I've done
But because of who You are.

I am a flower quickly fading,
Here today and gone tomorrow.
A wave tossed in the ocean.
A vapor in the wind.
Still You hear me when I'm calling.
Lord, You catch me when I'm falling.
And You've told me who I am.
I am Yours, I am Yours.

Who am I, that the eyes that see my sin
Would look on me with love and watch me rise again?
Who am I, that the voice that calmed the sea
Would call out through the rain
And calm the storm in me?

Not because of who I am
But because of what You've done.
Not because of what I've done
But because of who You are.

I am a flower quickly fading,
Here today and gone tomorrow.
A wave tossed in the ocean.
A vapor in the wind.
Still You hear me when I'm calling.
Lord, You catch me when I'm falling.
And You've told me who I am.
I am Yours.

Not because of who I am
But because of what You've done.
Not because of what I've done
But because of who You are.

I am a flower quickly fading,
Here today and gone tomorrow.
A wave tossed in the ocean.
A vapor in the wind.
Still You hear me when I'm calling.
Lord, You catch me when I'm falling.
And You've told me who I am.
I am Yours, I am Yours, I am Yours.

Whom shall I fear?
Whom shall I fear?
'Cause I am Yours, I am Yours.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Over and Underneath, by Tenth Avenue North:

I know I need You
I need to love You
I'd love to see You but it's been so long

I long to feel You
I feel this need for You
I need to hear You
Is that so wrong

Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh
Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh

Now You pull me near You
When we're close I fear You
Still I'm afraid to tell you all that I've done

Are You done forgiving
Or can You look past my pretending, Lord
I'm so tired of defending what I've become
What have I become

Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh
Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh
Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh
Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh
Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh

I hear You say
My love is over
It's underneath
It's inside
It's in between

The times that you doubt me
When you can't feel
The times that you question
Is this for real

The times you're broken
The times that you mend
The times you hate me
And the times that you bend

Well my love is over
It's underneath
It's inside
It's in between

The times that you're healing
And when your heart breaks
The times that you feel like you've fallen from grace

The times you're hurting
The times that you heal
The times you go hungry and are tempted to steal

In times of confusion
In chaos and pain
I'm there in your sorrow under the weight of your shame

I'm there through your heart-ache
I'm there in the storm
My love I will keep you by my power alone

I don't care where you've fallen or where you have been
I'll never forsake you
My love never ends
It never ends, mmmm

Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh
Oh oh, oh oh, oh oh

 

[evenifigoalone]

The Struggle, by Tenth Avenue North:

There's a wreckage, there's a fire
There's a weakness in my love
There's a hunger I can't control
Lord I falter and I fall down
Then I hold on to the chains you broke
When You came down and saved my soul
Save my soul

Hallelujah
We are free to struggle
We're not struggling to be free
Your blood bought and makes us children
So children drop your chains and sing

So why Lord do I still fail?
Do I wear thin?,
Why do I still give in to temptation?
On my own, I am bankrupt,
I don't trust You
Or take You at Your word,
What You've promised.

Hallelujah
We are free to struggle
We're not struggling to be free
Your blood bought and makes us children
So children drop your chains and sing

Hallelujah, death is overcome
And we are breathing
Hallelujah our stone hearts become flesh
A flesh that's beating
Hallelujah chains have been undone
And we are singing
Hallelujah the fire has begun
Can you feel it?

Hallelujah, death is overcome
And we are breathing
Hallelujah our stone hearts become flesh
A flesh that's beating
Hallelujah chains have been undone
And we are singing
Hallelujah the fire has begun
Can you feel it?

Hallelujah
We are free to struggle
We're not struggling to be free
Your blood bought and makes us children
So children drop your chains and sing
(Ooh's)

 

[steaver]

I think that works, right?

P.S.
I fit into the first camp mentioned in the OP. I don't believe salvation is attained through works.
But I'm not prepared to debate on this one just yet as the debate goes over my head a little, so I'm just here to share songs about God's grace.

Welcome aboard QD (longer screen names usually find themselves abbreviated ) :wavey:

That's a good camp to be in :thumbs: Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

 

[steaver]

The Moroni doctrine is the product of a Baptist by the name of Samuel Spalding whose widow sold the book of Mormon manuscript to Joseph Smith - who then claimed that an angel "Moroni" came up with it instead of the Baptist - Samuel Spalding.

Are you sure you really want to keep going there?? I find it odd that you are looking to link that "Moroni" doctrine to someone or some group as if it is going to help your case.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks for the info, I didn't know there was a controversy over who wrote the book of Mormon. :thumbsup: And yes, I'm sure, it is quite important for the Christian to understand this antichrist doctrine of grace plus performance is embraced by a false religion as one of their signature core teachings.

Secondly you continue to use circular reasoning to support your suggestion that sanctification is really justification if the Bible is correct when it talks about someone becoming "fallen from grace" and "severed from Christ". You support your spin - by simply "claiming it" each time the Bible case comes up showing that a person can have forgiveness revoked (Matt 18) or can be come "Fallen from Grace, severed from Christ". You simply respond with "well then justified by works" -- yet this is your spin you have yet to prove that it has any Bible support.

Let's take a look;

Gal5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace".

What is "fallen from grace" attributed to? Wait for it.........to "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now I am a "Faith Alone", "Justified by Grace Alone" born-again Christian, so explain how this "fallen from grace" can apply to me??? I have no desire to be justified by the law nor do I believe that I am justified by the law. But who is he who is "fallen from grace"? He who adds self-performance as a condition for justification.

You keep pointing a "Grace through faith alone" believer to Gal5:4. Does that really make sense to you?? "See! See! You can fall from grace!" No, not me, not any biblical faith alone believer, I don't believe a Christian is justified by the law, so how can I fall from grace??

Maybe you believe a Christian is justified by the law Bob, are you one of those "whosoever of you" ?? Remember brother, "This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you". (Gal5:8)

 

[BobRyan]

Secondly you continue to use circular reasoning to support your suggestion that sanctification is really justification if the Bible is correct when it talks about someone becoming "fallen from grace" and "severed from Christ". You support your spin - by simply "claiming it" each time the Bible case comes up showing that a person can have forgiveness revoked (Matt 18) or can be come "Fallen from Grace, severed from Christ".

You simply respond with "well then justified by works" -- yet this is your spin you have yet to prove that it has any Bible support.

Let's take a look;

Gal5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace".

Indeed .. in fact it says in the NASB

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


NKJV
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

Now I am a "Faith Alone", "Justified by Grace Alone" born-again Christian, so explain how this "fallen from grace" can apply to me???

Not everyone who "says" Lord Lord... who "Says justified by grace alone" will enter the kingdom of heaven - Matt 7.

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Not everyone who "says" Lord Lord... who "Says justified by grace alone" will enter the kingdom of heaven - Matt 7.



in Christ,

Bob

Agreed. Scripture is consistent on this point, it is not what one "says" , rather it is what one "is" (i.e. born of God - 1John). James also speaks to this "saying" aspect.

What does Matthew 7 say about the false? "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (16) . "Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them" (20) . What key word do we find here? "Know".

Jesus continues,

(21) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". Two points; (1) "not everyone that SAYS" (2) "BUT he that DOETH the will of God"

(22) "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Two points; (1) Again, "many will SAY" (2) they point Jesus to their "good" works of self-righteousness.

And what is Jesus' answer? (23) "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". Two points; (1) Jesus "NEVER KNEW" them - this destroys referencing Matt 7 as a once saved and them lost scripture, they were never saved for Jesus never knew them. (2) Jesus calls their "good" works "iniquity".

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?

Shown above how it is not challenged by Matt 7 at all, yet rather supported.

Just another observation, and this is probably why many get caught up in this losing salvation doctrine. One needs to understand that a born of God Christian is more then "joined to Christ". I have spoken with Mormons and with Jehovah Witnesses and when I challenge them about whether or not Christ is "in" them, they always reply - "Christ is joined with me". The correct teaching of "Christ in you" is defined for us in the scripture as "regeneration", as two becoming one "new creation". This alone is proof of OSAS, Christ does not merely come along side and join Himself as just a helper, this is Mormon and JW teaching, no, Christ has become part of the born of God's very essence! This is why John declares in 1John3:9 - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".