Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?

[Yeshua1]

was the thief on the cross saved, as ALL he did was place faith in Jesus to save him!

The thief also admitted his guilt and accepted his punishment. he repented and confessed his sins. His faith alone did not save him.[/QUOTE]
Paul and all of the Apostles stated that is all we need to do!

 

[HankD]

Amen. The Sacrament of Confirmation. As a former Catholic you should have know this.

The word confirmation does not exist in this passage, the word "baptize' on the other hand does.

Douay-Rheims
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.


HankD

 

[saved by grace]

Then why would you ask why a born again believer wouldn't do that?



In Catholicism, yes. In Christianity, and according to the Bible, no.




A good rule of thumb is, if a verse or passage begins with a conjunction, that's telling you that the previous verses are what you need to look at.

In this case, the two verses you're alluding to begin with a conjunction. That tells us we need to go back a little further to understand what these two verses are summarizing.

In this case, going back to the very beginning of the chapter, we see that these two verses are not referring to born again believers who's salvation Christ has been too incompetent to keep, but to those who knew the Gospel and benefitted from it, but who were not born again. Specifically, in v 1, we're told that they are false prophets and teachers.

You are assuming quite a bit there. First of all it says they had "escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

The Greek word there for "knowledge" is epignosis which means full experiential knowledge of things ethical and divine.

Only someone regenerated would have that kind of knowledge

These people were saved but lost their salvation.

Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

 

[saved by grace]

The word confirmation does not exist in this passage, the word "baptize' on the other hand does.

Douay-Rheims
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.


HankD

Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Why do you believe in that?

 

[MennoSota]

Oh my goodness. Do you not realize that Paul is speaking about the Judaizers who were claiming that "works" of the Mosaic Law, specifically circumcision, were necessary for salvation? They were Christians. They had God's grace. They were in Christ which is why Paul told them that if they insist that works of the Mosaic Law are necessary they have fallen from Grace.
The Old Covenant is over.
Paul is not even addressing good works given to us by God that we were created in Christ Jesus to do. He tells us how important those are in Romans 2:6-7

They were running from grace back to works...just like you are doing.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Yes....but the law had "requirements" that every man must follow. Romans 2: 14-15

The requirements are the moral law of God.

Exactly, which makes it a work of man.

If you don't believe then why would you be baptized? For an adult Faith is absolutely necessary with baptism

I agree. But that isn't what you said.

Of course those who don't believe will not be saved. An atheist will not be saved.

Why not? If one is born again through baptism, then why doesn't that make a baptized atheist born again?

I haven't ignored anything

Actually, you have. Repeatedly. You ignored the corollary in Mark 16:16. You ignored virtually all of 2 Peter 3. You ignored the first nineteen verses of 2 Peter. You ignored the first 23 verses of James 2.

And how do you infallibly know your interpretation is correct?

Because I know the difference between an "interpretation" and a forensic study of the text.

Baptism isn't a work. It is a sacrament given to us by God.

So, first it's not a work. Then, it's a work, but a work of God, not a work of man. Then it's not a work again. Now, it's not a work, it's a sacrament, which is a work. Do you know what the Bible says about a double minded man?

That's not what James says, "you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"

Actually, had you been honest enough to read the previous verses, you would have seen that's exactly what he said. But, no, you insist that James 2 begins at verse 24.

In fact Paul himself tells us that God will give eternal life according to those kinds of works. Romans 2:6-7

Yep. Just like in the Judgment of the Nations, "those kind of works" will be identifying marks of those who have been saved by their faith in Christ.

The thief also admitted his guilt and accepted his punishment. he repented and confessed his sins. His faith alone did not save him.

So if he wasn't saved by faith alone, what saved him?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Why do you believe in that?

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. However, were Catholics familiar with the Bible, you would know that the concept of a Triune God revealed in three separate and distinct, yet co-equal and co-eternal persons, is all throughout the Bible.

 

[Yeshua1]

was the thief on the cross saved, as ALL he did was place faith in Jesus to save him!

The thief also admitted his guilt and accepted his punishment. he repented and confessed his sins. His faith alone did not save him.[/QUOTE]
You are proved wrong by both Jesus and Paul!

 

[MennoSota]

Grace which comes from Christ is what saves.

Grace does not come from communion or baptism. It comes from God by God's ordained choice, not from the works of taking communion or baptism.
You kill grace when you add the requirement of the sacraments onto salvation.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You are assuming quite a bit there. First of all it says they had "escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

No, actually, I'm not assuming anything. I'm going by a plain reading of the text, which, in v1 says they were false prophets and false teachers.

The Greek word there for "knowledge" is epignosis which means full experiential knowledge of things ethical and divine.

Only someone regenerated would have that kind of knowledge

Not true. The Bible talks in several passages about people who knew the Gospel and benefited from it, but who were not saved.

These people were saved but lost their salvation.

Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

Actually, nobody in Genesis was saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

Grace does not come from communion or baptism. It comes from God by God's ordained choice, not from the works of taking communion or baptism.
You kill grace when you add the requirement of the sacraments onto salvation.

Amen , as its Jesus alone that saves us!

 

[HankD]

Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Why do you believe in that?

The word Trinity does not exist in the Bible, however your argument is irrelevant as the word baptize does occur in this passage and many others in the NT. In addition the word confirm, confirmation exists in 14 places in the NT.

The Spirit of God chose "baptize" here where He could have chosen "confirm-confirmation" but did not.

HankD

 

[Adonia]

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. However, were Catholics familiar with the Bible, you would know that the concept of a Triune God revealed in three separate and distinct, yet co-equal and co-eternal persons, is all throughout the Bible.

Yes the concept is there and was taught to all Christendom by the Bishop's of the One Universal (Catholic) Church. You owe us a big debt of gratitude.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Yes the concept is there and was taught to all Christendom by the Bishop's of the One Universal (Catholic) Church. You owe us a big debt of gratitude.

No I owe them a debt of gratitude. I don't owe you or the modern Catholic Church a thing.

 

[saved by grace]

They were running from grace back to works...just like you are doing.

Paul says that had fallen from grace........not they were running from grace. You've been reading too much Calvin and Luther. Just read the Word of God. It couldn't be more clear.

 

[saved by grace]

Exactly, which makes it a work of man.



I agree. But that isn't what you said.



Why not? If one is born again through baptism, then why doesn't that make a baptized atheist born again?



Actually, you have. Repeatedly. You ignored the corollary in Mark 16:16. You ignored virtually all of 2 Peter 3. You ignored the first nineteen verses of 2 Peter. You ignored the first 23 verses of James 2.



Because I know the difference between an "interpretation" and a forensic study of the text.



So, first it's not a work. Then, it's a work, but a work of God, not a work of man. Then it's not a work again. Now, it's not a work, it's a sacrament, which is a work. Do you know what the Bible says about a double minded man?



Actually, had you been honest enough to read the previous verses, you would have seen that's exactly what he said. But, no, you insist that James 2 begins at verse 24.


Yep. Just like in the Judgment of the Nations, "those kind of works" will be identifying marks of those who have been saved by their faith in Christ.



So if he wasn't saved by faith alone, what saved him?

What saved him was the Grace of God. That's what cause him to have faith, repent and confess. It's faith and works not faith by itself. It all God's Grace.

It's amazing you can't see the difference between the work of man and the work of God.
Is sanctification a work of man? Can you become holy by your own power?

All of James condemns faith alone. It a doctrine invented by Luther.

Show me one verse, just one, that actually says we are justified by faith alone.

Yes, Matthew 25 judgment of the nations. Those kind of works will be necessary. If all you have to show is your faith "alone" you will be among the unrighteous and sent to hell.

 

[saved by grace]

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. However, were Catholics familiar with the Bible, you would know that the concept of a Triune God revealed in three separate and distinct, yet co-equal and co-eternal persons, is all throughout the Bible.

It was Catholic Bishops who wrote about the "concept" of the Trinity. It was a Catholic Bishop who wrote against the Arians.
Show me one verse that says the Holy Spirit is a divine person co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son.

Yet I can show you a verse that says baptism now saves you and you must ignore it because it condemns your idea that baptism is merely a symbol.

 

[saved by grace]

No I owe them a debt of gratitude. I don't owe you or the modern Catholic Church a thing.

When do you claim the "modern" Catholic Church began? The Catholic Bishops at the Council of Nicaea were bishops of the same Catholic Church that exists today. One thing is for sure, there weren't any Baptists there.

 

[saved by grace]

No, actually, I'm not assuming anything. I'm going by a plain reading of the text, which, in v1 says they were false prophets and false teachers.



Not true. The Bible talks in several passages about people who knew the Gospel and benefited from it, but who were not saved.



Actually, nobody in Genesis was saved.

Go to the link that says Genesis. It will take you to the Greek that shows the people Peter is speaking about had full knowledge of Jesus Christ. They had to have been regenerated for that to be possible.

 

[MennoSota]

Paul says that had fallen from grace........not they were running from grace. You've been reading too much Calvin and Luther. Just read the Word of God. It couldn't be more clear.

Grace did not cease to be given. They had turned their backs on God's grace to instead try hitting the mark by works.
In today's terms...They left the church the Baptist church that preached the good news of God's gift of grace to go back to the Roman church where they needed to work their way to God.