Christianity & Islam

[JonC]

Ok but just because God made Christ doesn't mean Christ was God before he made him. I mean how does that even make sense?

God did not "make Christ." If you are interested, study the meanings behind the words in John 1 (the Greek does not really translate well into English). The Son is eternal and God (not "made" but God). Christ is a position - it simply means Messiah. Jesus is the name given to God's Son. Anyway, I just thought I'd suggest what would be a very interesting study for a Christian (perhaps not so much for someone on the fence).

Anyway, I was going to respond to another comment. "Christian" can be taken in a secular sense (nominal Christianity). But Christian means "all who believe." You will find that those who have experienced regeneration take "Christian" to be those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. You will also find that "belief" or "faith" is qualified (it is not merely cognitive). So "all who believe" are all and only Christian. (If a Muslim has faith in Jesus Christ as his Savior, then that person is no longer Muslim but is Christian. When I came to faith in Jesus Christ as my Savior I moved from nominal Christianity to true Christianity). You do seem like an intelligent person, and from your description of yourself I think that you can understand the difference I'm pointing out. "All who believe" were the only ones who were/are "added to the Church." "All who believe" are all and only Christian. Yet secular "Christianity" often includes other groups that acknowledge Christ in some form (Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc) even though they reject the basic foundations of the gospel message.

Just some suggestion. Please just take out of it whatever you feel useful and dismiss the rest.

 

[McCree79]

I have an opinion. My opinion is that Christ and God are the same, but that wasn't the case when he was human. I also don't believe that I have to think Jesus was God in human form in order to be saved. I actually know this because I have been saved in an astonishing, miraculous way and I didn't really think too much about Jesus at that time.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

You will find Christianity holds Christ was God from the beginning. He is part of the God head. To deny His Deity, is to deny God. As the Apostle John says. "No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." -1John 2:23

Jesus says Him and the Father are one before the Crucifixion. "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” -John 10:29-30

 

[McCree79]

And in there lies the problem. They all stem from the same belief and God so why the endless misery due to small differences. Can you not see that this division was intentional. The Lord spoke of different nations not different religions.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

I agree, that is was intentional. muhammad was a false prophet who has lead many astray. Best way to keep people from following Jesus, is to get them to follow a false God. 1John 2:10-25
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. "
John warned us about the likes of Islam

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I'm new here. I hope everyone is doing well. I am not here to offend in any way. Really quite the opposite. I only have one or two questions.

1) Why do you think Christians, and Islam can not unify under God? Why do they hold some contempt towards one another when ancient texts tell us that we are all believers, and all faithful in the Lord are brothers?

2) What steps could be taken in order to bring all together under the one all encompassing Lord, our God?

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

Troll alert.

I can't believe you people have let him bait you for seven pages.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Ok but just because God made Christ doesn't mean Christ was God before he made him. I mean how does that even make sense?

OK, now I think I'm understanding you a little better.

God did not make or create Christ. That's a non-Biblical tenet that is taught by some cults such as Jehovah's Witnesses. They interpret "firstborn" and "Beginning" in a couple of verses as meaning that Jesus was created and had a beginning point like a turnip or a mountain.

Firstborn can literally mean the first child born to a couple. It can also mean a place of preeminent authority over things.

For example, this is what God said about King David in Psalm 89.

I have found David My servant. With My holy oil I have anointed him, .................I also shall make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth,

David wasn't anyone's literal firstborn. He was the LAST born of his literal parents. David wasn't the literal firstborn of Hebrew kings. King Saul came before David.

God is exalting David - giving him a position of superiority - not a position of sequential order.

Jesus Christ is the "firstborn" of creation (Colossians 1) in that he is exalted over creation as superior to the creation. Why? Because Jesus is God and Jesus, as the Bible teaches, IS the Creator.

Jesus Christ is the "Beginning" of creation (Revelation 3). By very definition of the literal Greek word for beginning used here it means "leader, origin, one who commences, that which by anything commences to be, the active cause of something. It does not mean the first thing created. It means that which DID the creating or that the creation submits to and follows.

Jesus Christ is not a created thing. He is the preeminent Creator himself.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Scarlett O.,

So God made David his first born as in the first true believer, or the father of all subsequent believers. This doesn't mean that he was created before creation though. The same for Jesus. He was the first and only pure human. That, in no way means he was the literal source of all creation.


Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[popsthebuilder]

Troll alert.

I can't believe you people have let him bait you for seven pages.

I'm not baiting anyone. Your arrogance and hatred go against the teachings of Christ though. Or am I mistaken on that point as well?

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[popsthebuilder]

McCree79,
No one ever claimed Muhammad was a God. Not once that I have seen. Islam believes in Christ and God. The son and the father if you will. That is what it says is truth so how are they the embodiment of the antichrist?


Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[popsthebuilder]

You will find Christianity holds Christ was God from the beginning. He is part of the God head. To deny His Deity, is to deny God. As the Apostle John says. "No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." -1John 2:23

Jesus says Him and the Father are one before the Crucifixion. "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” -John 10:29-30

The same could be said by any true believer about there own Faith. If I die this instant then I would no doubt still ha e my personal connection with God. My death wouldn't change that, except make it stronger.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[Scarlett O.]

Scarlett O.,

So God made David his first born as in the first true believer, or the father of all subsequent believers. This doesn't mean that he was created before creation though. The same for Jesus. He was the first and only pure human. That, in no way means he was the literal source of all creation.


Faith in selfless Unity through Good

I'm confused. The passage didn't say that God made David the first true believer.

Hebrew 11 is a roll call of faithful believers that existed LONG before David.

The passage said that God made David the firstborn of the kings - the preeminent king of Israel though not the first literal king. I never said David was created before creation. David was only a man.

I just showed you using the literal definitions of the words of the Koine Greek in which the words come from that the Bible IS saying that Jesus is the Creator.

That's all I can do.

 

[McCree79]

Troll alert.

I can't believe you people have let him bait you for seven pages.

He claims to be "studying" religions still. Super investigator Scarlett has found him on many other forums. From atheist to muslim. All indications at this time is that he is searching for something. So, perhaps he is "studying".

 

[Don]

So pops, who do you say Jesus is? Do you acknowledge that He is God in the flesh?

 

[McCree79]

Scarlett O.,

So God made David his first born as in the first true believer, or the father of all subsequent believers. This doesn't mean that he was created before creation though. The same for Jesus. He was the first and only pure human. That, in no way means he was the literal source of all creation.


Faith in selfless Unity through Good

John1:2-3.
"He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Scarlett is dead on the mark

 

[JohnDeereFan]

He claims to be "studying" religions still. Super investigator Scarlett has found him on many other forums. From atheist to muslim. All indications at this time is that he is searching for something. So, perhaps he is "studying".

If you want to argue with a fool according to his folly, suit yourself.

 

[McCree79]

McCree79,
No one ever claimed Muhammad was a God. Not once that I have seen. Islam believes in Christ and God. The son and the father if you will. That is what it says is truth so how are they the embodiment of the antichrist?


Faith in selfless Unity through Good

Muslims don't understand the distinction between Jesus' human nature and His divine nature. They deny his redemptive work on the cross. They deny Him.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Muslims don't understand the distinction between Jesus' human nature and His divine nature. They deny his redemptive work on the cross. They deny Him.

Sure they do. They just don't seem to worship his human state. As to them that is not the same as worshiping God.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[Scarlett O.]

If you want to argue with a fool according to his folly, suit yourself.

I don't want to argue with this guy. He may be a troll or he may be a person who is genuinely seeking what the truth is.

pops, I don't mean to talk about you like you aren't here and don't be offended by what I say here...

JohnDeereFan, I Googled his username and the word "forums". It took me to a vast array of places that teach a myriad different beliefs. He asks them lots of questions.

Troll? I don't know. But for now I don't mind answering questions. If I am satisfied that he isn't interested in the truth .... I won't respond again.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I don't want to argue with this guy. He may be a troll or he may be a person who is genuinely seeking what the truth is.

pops, I don't mean to talk about you like you aren't here and don't be offended by what I say here...

JohnDeereFan, I Googled his username and the word "forums". It took me to a vast array of places that teach a myriad different beliefs. He asks them lots of questions.

Troll? I don't know. But for now I don't mind answering questions. If I am satisfied that he isn't interested in the truth .... I won't respond again.

Here's a hint: "Is Jesus God" is a question. "Jesus is not God" is not.

 

[McCree79]

What Scriptures does Islam use to support Christ is now God, but wasn't when he walked the earth?

According to Sura 5:116-117, allah integrates Jesus about him commanding people to worship him. Jesus denies this. This conversation will take place on the day of judgment supposedly. Jesus then goes on to tell allah that only he is God and is to be worshiped. Sounds like the book of Sura as repeatedly denied Jesus is God. On earth and after

 

[McCree79]

Sure they do. They just don't seem to worship his human state. As to them that is not the same as worshiping God.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

Where is their scripture? Jesus is still in human forum today. Holes in hand and all.

I have provided their scripture were they deny Jesus is God, on earth and after. Show me Scripture where they claim he is God.