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Christians are not required to tithe
- Thread starter Olivencia
- Start date
SBCPreacher said:
That may be true for some people, but some people who realized that no church tithe exists in the Bible have started giving much more out of the joys of being free than when felt restricted to a mythical blessing-cursing system.
Someone who believes in works-based salvation may view someone who believes in grace through faith alone for salvation as his or her excuse to live in sin and still go to heaven. Whether or not one teaching yields more good deeds than another, truth is more important.
The same goes for the myth about a church tithe. If one claims that someone must "obey" the tithe of the Bible, then how do we obey it or why do we not obey it the way the Bible explains it in more detail than any other command? If the New Testament commands people to give cheerfully, why do we have to try to stuff in some kind of percentage that is not there and then claim that that is commanded? If the command is to give cheerfully why do we emphasize more on a percentage that is not there than on the word cheerfully that is in the command?
Harold Garvey
New Member
Hi, again, and thanks for the grand welcome.
I firmly believe when the people see what their money is going towards it affects their hearts as how to give: pastors who rant and rave about the tithe usually are the ones who live somewhat extravagant lives and are active in not a few financial ventures of sorts. One thing we see when a church is well decorated, nothing too good for God's House, the people tend to have a sense of gratification for their church building, the grounds and such. Afterall, they have put alot of their hard earned money in it!
What I see in those churches where the pastor goes to and fro, wearing cufflinks and driving fancy cars, nice vacations, sometimes three a years, it's more like the poeple have an air of being in bondage or something.
Now I know the man of God is worthy of double honor, usually this means the total average of the congregation is doubled to determine the pastor's pay, so I am not knocking the man of God. I am remarking to what I've discerned over the years about certain churches and the way they are "run".
We are to be at liberty to give to our local assembly, cheerfully giving to a common cause of reaching a lost world for Christ, but I must add, we are not required to tithe so one man or his entourage can operate from a "command post" reaping the majority of the benefits the finances bring.
The people first gave themselves and then above their necessity to see that Paul and his workers had enough to supply them for their journeys, and God blessed them all, not just the preacher and his closest "few".
The latter description tends to be found more amongst the "Tithe!, it's the command of God!" crowd. Usually the pastor who is hammering tithing has brought in others to help him and he has big plans to surround his ministry with some big things, but I have to question the motivation there. Is it to promote his chosen "few", or to do a great work for God and that pastor's name going down in the record books for doing this great work?
I'm afraid we see too many making a name for themselves instead of doing all they can for Jesus and His Name's sake.:thumbs:
I firmly believe when the people see what their money is going towards it affects their hearts as how to give: pastors who rant and rave about the tithe usually are the ones who live somewhat extravagant lives and are active in not a few financial ventures of sorts. One thing we see when a church is well decorated, nothing too good for God's House, the people tend to have a sense of gratification for their church building, the grounds and such. Afterall, they have put alot of their hard earned money in it!
What I see in those churches where the pastor goes to and fro, wearing cufflinks and driving fancy cars, nice vacations, sometimes three a years, it's more like the poeple have an air of being in bondage or something.
Now I know the man of God is worthy of double honor, usually this means the total average of the congregation is doubled to determine the pastor's pay, so I am not knocking the man of God. I am remarking to what I've discerned over the years about certain churches and the way they are "run".
We are to be at liberty to give to our local assembly, cheerfully giving to a common cause of reaching a lost world for Christ, but I must add, we are not required to tithe so one man or his entourage can operate from a "command post" reaping the majority of the benefits the finances bring.
The people first gave themselves and then above their necessity to see that Paul and his workers had enough to supply them for their journeys, and God blessed them all, not just the preacher and his closest "few".
The latter description tends to be found more amongst the "Tithe!, it's the command of God!" crowd. Usually the pastor who is hammering tithing has brought in others to help him and he has big plans to surround his ministry with some big things, but I have to question the motivation there. Is it to promote his chosen "few", or to do a great work for God and that pastor's name going down in the record books for doing this great work?
I'm afraid we see too many making a name for themselves instead of doing all they can for Jesus and His Name's sake.:thumbs:
Harold Garvey
New Member
Hi.
I have to disagree from this standpoint: "income" and "money" are one in the same. Now if you had limited "money" to income of cash, then yes, but income can be bartered services or goods. Goods can be crops, and crops were tithed as well as livestock. It's in the Bible.:thumbs:
I understand your point. The reason that I separated money and income is that they are different. Income, for modern purposes will be anything that one acquires that is taxable.Harold Garvey said:
The truth is that the Bible nowhere required anyone to tithe of income. Everyone did not tithe of anything acquired; only landowners tithed of the crops and livestock that God produced on the land for which they were caretakers. Landowners had incoming revenue and outgoing expenses; however, the only things of which they tithed were the crops and livestock of the increase of the harvest.
The truth is also that the Bible nowhere required anyone to tithe of money.
The only places where money is mentioned regarding the tithe are the following:
1. If one did not want to give his tithe of crops he could instead pay 120% of its value in money. The 20% was a penalty for not giving the tithe in food. One could not get around the tithe of livestock because the priests needed them for burnt offerings. (Lev 27:30-34)
2. If hauling one's tithe of crops and livestock to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles were too burdensome, one could exchange it for money as a medium, and repurchase titheable commodities when he arrived. (Deu 14:22-27)
The tithe was God's agricultural tax and welfare system for the theocratic nation of Israel to support the Levitical priesthood government.
Only the tithe of every three years was wholly given away. The annual tithe for the feast of the tabernacles was eaten by the tither and shared with Levites and foreigners.
Ares, what you are also forgetting is that the commerce of the day was not specifically coinage but something of a complex barter system whereby people could pay money or the monotary value by another means.
Therefore money was not what was required for tithe because that which the tithe was for (its purpose) could be and was maintianed via commodities recieved. However, just as you noted though money WAS a part of the tithing it just was not the main aspect and that was because of the social system of finances (being not only done with money) during that time period.
Secondly the pupose of the tithe has NOTHING to do with taxes. It you have some scriptural reference which declares it as such please give it so I can know at least that it is there. It did have a purpose though. One such purpose was to feed the poor and widows of the congregation, another was the daily maintenace of the Temple, and also it was for the priests (this however should be noted that only 1 tenth of the tithe given was the priests because they could not work). And the priests also shared of the sacrifices and offerings (food), and I think one other but I can't remember just now if there was.
As you illistrated, there were other tithes in scripture to the which Jews were to give as well, so it is important to also note they paid much more than just A Tithe but had other tithes which they also had to give as well. So they did not only give just a tenth and left it, that was the very minimum they should be giving to reflect the honor of God and His faithfulness in which they depended.
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Amen and Amen brother.
The New Covenant does not allow us to be dogmatic, contrary to the sentiments of many.
Allan said:
Maybe, maybe not. But I think we tend not to give people back in the Old Testament credit for their economic systems. The monetary systems back since Genesis 17 discusses money. Most of the occurrences of the word money is the same Hebrew word keh'-sef means silver (from its pale color); by implication money: money, price, silver (-ling).
I looked up money in e-Sword and found 123 verses
Money was common and used as currency. Genesis 43:22 says that Joseph's brothers purchased food from Joseph with money. Think... if they are starving from a famine, they would not be bartering with Joseph with food. The money was silver by definition. Many of the verses in Genesis measure the money as shekels of silver and discuss purchasing things such as land and food for its price in money.
Genesis 47:14-17 shows that there was a time when "the money faileth" that people told Joseph about it and he said "Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail" This barter system (cattle for bread) took place because during a famine, people need to eat, but they could not afford the expensive prices of the animals.
Check out Luke 19:12-27 on the parable of the Ten Pounds. Check out verse 23:
I do not want to bother going through all the verses about money. But I ask anyone to look up the word money in the Bible and glance at all the verses that have to do with money. Then look at all the verses that have the word tithe in them. You will find that money was very common throughout the Bible as a currency and that a tithe was never in money.
Look at Deuteronomy 14:22-29 to see how money was associated with a tithe. If the way was too far for someone to carry their tithes, they were to convert it to money, then purchase with the money whatever their soul lusteth after (list of consumable commodities) then they were commanded to eat their OWN TITHES and share it with Levites and the widows and the fatherless and the strangers within the gates.
I think when we read the Bible, we often think nothing about the money that was used in commonality, but once we think about the tithe laws, we envision a complex barter system and forget about the silver and coins that were used because our mind wants to justify the tithe laws as just "the barter system of the day" rather than a food system of celebration despite the existence of money.
I never stated they did not use money but the commerce to which I referred is historically verifiable and not due to some cursory glancing at the OT tithe system. It was a system that was not unique to the Jews but was common amoung the populus at that time.
Yes, they did use coinage (and it was preferable but not often or typically feasable). The coins used in that day were copper, silver, and gold and their value of course was due to the rarity of the mineral used. Copper was almost of no value which left silver and gold, yet though they were used they were not often held by the majority of people - at least in any significant amount.
If the common man was to have any silver it would be by small business deals (if they could) or selling something of good or great value which they had very few of. The common person had very little and what he did have was not very valuable. And what was valuable was often held as a family heir-loom or something only to be used at great need. As I said it was not something that you will find in the Jewish culture only but of all in that time period.
Again, I'm not saying they did not have money nor that it was a rare thing to have. What the majority had however was of very little significance over all and thus the commerce did not only deal with money but a trade/barter system. It was in this system much trade/bartering was done for many things while money was used for more specific/special things. Money was alway preferable (and when dealing with large quanities or special things - manditory) it was not alway feasable nor expected.
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Allan said:
Good answer.
Could you explain what Deuteronomy 14:22-29 instructed the Jews do do with their tithe? Especially, could you explain why verses 24-26 commanded the Jews to do if the way was too far and what to do when they arrived at the place. I would really like to know.
Read it, it is pretty plain and it doesn't contradict anything I have said.
The system of tithes and offerings was intended to impress the minds of men with a great truth —that God is the source of every blessing to His creatures, and that to Him man's gratitude is due for the good gifts of His providence.
In Hebrews 6:20, we read:
"Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec."
Just as Christ’s priesthood succeeded the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods, which were supported by the tithes of Israel, and as Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchisedec, who received tithes of the patriarchs before the Levitical priesthood was ordained, it is but logical and natural to conclude that the ministry under Christ’s priesthood should be supported by the same means as were both of these priesthoods—the tithes of God's people.
Christ Himself told us that we should pay tithe. "Ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23.
Tithes paid to God's ministers down here are actually paid directly to Christ.
"And here men that die receive tithes; but there He receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that He liveth."-Hebrews 7:8.
The system enjoined upon the Hebrews has not been repealed or relaxed by the One who originated it. Instead of being of no force now, it was to be more fully carried out and more extended, as salvation through Christ alone should be more fully brought to light in the Christian age.
God bless!
In Hebrews 6:20, we read:
"Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec."
Just as Christ’s priesthood succeeded the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods, which were supported by the tithes of Israel, and as Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchisedec, who received tithes of the patriarchs before the Levitical priesthood was ordained, it is but logical and natural to conclude that the ministry under Christ’s priesthood should be supported by the same means as were both of these priesthoods—the tithes of God's people.
Christ Himself told us that we should pay tithe. "Ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23.
Tithes paid to God's ministers down here are actually paid directly to Christ.
"And here men that die receive tithes; but there He receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that He liveth."-Hebrews 7:8.
The system enjoined upon the Hebrews has not been repealed or relaxed by the One who originated it. Instead of being of no force now, it was to be more fully carried out and more extended, as salvation through Christ alone should be more fully brought to light in the Christian age.
God bless!
Thanks for straightening us out. We have now changed our minds.
Thanks for straightening us out. We have now changed our minds.
--> Welll I have cited the NIDNTT twice to back up my assertion.
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In Matthew 23:23 those are not New Covenant commands. In Hebrews 7:8 it refers to Melchizedek. I'd like to see a citation from any Greek lexicon that states Christians are to tithe. I have cited the NIDNTT twice that says no.
--> Welll I have cited the NIDNTT twice to back up my assertion.
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In Matthew 23:23 those are not New Covenant commands. In Hebrews 7:8 it refers to Melchizedek. I'd like to see a citation from any Greek lexicon that states Christians are to tithe. I have cited the NIDNTT twice that says no.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The new Testament does speak of the Church gathering on the First day of the week [Sunday].
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Scripture also tells us:
Colossians 2:13-20
13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19. And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Interesting is it not?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I wonder how the pro vs con on the demand for the tithe would break down between those who are pastors and those who are not?