Christians Carrying Concealed Weapons - Falwell vs. Piper

[Don]

Maybe I'm missing something prior to my ninth cup of coffee today, but I can't seem to remember where Jesus tells us to take up arms to ward off bears or wolves from the flock...

Was David, a man after God's heart, chastised by God for protecting the sheep that he was made responsible for? Was David chastised by God for using a sling to kill Goliath? Or for waging battle?

He was most definitely chastised for sinning; but where's the example of Christians being chastised for protecting others?

And to directly answer your question--Jesus talked a LOT about sheep. Is there anything in His discussions that would lead you to believe He would let the lion and the bear kill the flock?

 

[Don]

Thanks, Hank; 1 Tim 5:8 is the verse I was trying to think of earlier.

 

[Zaac]

You usually make solid arguments. I am surprised at this one. Jesus never addressed the issue on either side. Arguing from silence is not an argument.

Not true. And ignoring what He DID say is what's not an argument.

You advocate taking up arms when Jesus cried out in mercy “Father, forgive them,” even for the ones who nailed him to the Cross.
You advocate taking up arms when Jesus says to love our enemies.
You advocate taking up arms while Jesus told Peter to put his knife down.

What Jesus did on the Cross should have changed the reaction of every Christian. But we continue to respond like the world and not like Christ.

Shame on Jerry Falwell Jr. and Liberty University.

 

[Zaac]

Maybe I'm missing something prior to my ninth cup of coffee today, but I can't seem to remember where Jesus tells us to take up arms to ward off bears or wolves from the flock...

AMEN!!! The responses in this thread are the antithesis of what Jesus preached.

 

[Rob_BW]

If you falter in a time of trouble,
how small is your strength!
Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.
If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done?

 

[Rolfe]

What is the moral difference between an armed military/police and an armed citizen? I can think of none.

 

[Rolfe]

Maybe I'm missing something prior to my ninth cup of coffee today, but I can't seem to remember where Jesus tells us to take up arms to ward off bears or wolves from the flock...

I doubt that the sword mentioned in Luke 22:36 was intended for slicing cheese.

 

[Rob_BW]

What is the moral difference between an armed military/police and an armed citizen? I can think of none.

The police in particular derive their power from the citizens' right to protect life and property. We simply delegate to the police the responsibility for this personal right. But this does not mean that we give up our right to self defense.

 

[Zaac]

What is the moral difference between an armed military/police and an armed citizen? I can think of none.

I believe the distinction is being made between an armed military/police and an armed Christian.
Have we as Christians been commanded of God to take up arms against those who would do us harm? Or have we been commanded to do just the opposite?

 

[Zaac]

The police in particular derive their power from the citizens' right to protect life and property. We simply delegate to the police the responsibility for this personal right. But this does not mean that we give up our right to self defense.

Are you confusing your Constitutional rights with your Biblical rights? Jesus has displayed how we, as His followers, are to respond to our enemies and it is not with the sword because the One wielding the sword will effectively do so when He returns.

And no one said we don't have a right to self defense. But I get the distinct impression that a lot of folks believe that carrying a concealed weapon with a permit gives them the right to shoot to kill under any and all circumstances of self defense. That's not the case LEGALLY or Biblically.

 

[just-want-peace]

If you falter in a time of trouble,
how small is your strength!
Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.
If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done?

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

I would hate to face God and Him ask me, "Why did you not stop that man raping that young girl - by whatever means? Are you not your brothers keeper "?

"Well Father, (whimper, whine) I knew you are a God of LOVE and PEACE and could intervene if it were your will, so I just called 911 (whimper, whine) and let you determine the outcome."

 

[Zaac]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

I would hate to face God and Him ask me, "Why did you not stop that man raping that young girl - by whatever means? Are you not your brothers keeper "?

"Well Father, (whimper, whine) I knew you are a God of LOVE and PEACE and could intervene if it were your will, so I just called 911 (whimper, whine) and let you determine the outcome."

Classic example of trying to create God in your own image. Love how you threw that "by whatever means" in there.

 

[Rolfe]

The police in particular derive their power from the citizens' right to protect life and property. We simply delegate to the police the responsibility for this personal right. But this does not mean that we give up our right to self defense.

Exactly.

 

[Rolfe]

I believe the distinction is being made between an armed military/police and an armed Christian.

Ok, then what is the moral conflict?

Have we as Christians been commanded of God to take up arms against those who would do us harm? Or have we been commanded to do just the opposite?

Proverbs 25:26. Luke 22:36. Luke 11:21. I Timothy 5:8. Exodus 22:2,3. Psalm 144:1.

 

[Don]

So Zaac - what exactly would you have us do when we see people shooting or stabbing others? Raping our sisters, wives, or daughters? Beating our grandparents?

Yes, those appear to be "emotional appeal" arguments; but they're actual scenarios.

If not respond to stop the threat, what would you suggest we do?

 

[Rolfe]

So Zaac - what exactly would you have us do when we see people shooting or stabbing others? Raping our sisters, wives, or daughters? Beating our grandparents?

Yes, those appear to be "emotional appeal" arguments; but they're actual scenarios.

If not respond to stop the threat, what would you suggest we do?

Probably "turn the other cheek" by looking away.

 

[Zaac]

Ok, then what is the moral conflict?

There is no moral conflict. Christ examples the RIGHT way and some of you want to do it YOUR way. His way is right, y'all's is wrong.

Proverbs 25:26.

How is responding like Christ giving way before the wicked?Perhaps therein lies the problem. Do we know what Christ expects of us when dealing with those who may seek to harm us?

Luke 22:36

Contextually, the use of the swords for violence is disproved by what happens after when Jesus tells Peter to put away his sword.

. Luke 11:21.

??? It's a parable contextually talking about Jesus Christ overcoming Satan( the strong man).

I Timothy 5:8.

About making provision, not about violence.

Exodus 22:2,3.

There's no point in looking at OT cultural laws especially when NT completion of the Law renders it moot.

Psalm 144:1.

Scripture shows that there is a difference between being armed by the government in nation vs nation war and being armed just because of a desire to protect oneself or family. Scripture tells us there is a time for war. And this Scripture speaks to war, not personal engagement to kill someone.

 

[Don]

And...I'm not seeing a reply to my question....

 

[HAMel]

Don..., I'll answer your question. As a Christian you do whatever you can do to "serve and protect" another that has not the means to defend themselves.

...all of this "What If" stuff is for the birds. What If..., a helicopter falls on top of the cafeteria at Liberty during the lunch hour? What If..., an LP Gas tank explodes?

My wife and I carried concealed for 10 years and then let them expire. On occasion I still carry concealed especially while at church and will continue to do so.

 

[Zaac]

So Zaac - what exactly would you have us do when we see people shooting or stabbing others? Raping our sisters, wives, or daughters? Beating our grandparents?

Yes, those appear to be "emotional appeal" arguments; but they're actual scenarios.

If not respond to stop the threat, what would you suggest we do?

I didn't see your response earlier Don.
Why do any of the scenarios you mentioned have to be settled by, i.e., shooting to kill? Or shooting at all? Are there not other ways to stop these things if you see them occurring other than shooting to kill?