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Christians, Put Down Your Guns

M

MrW

Well-Known Member
"If any man provide not for his own, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel."

That includes protecting one's family, with deadly force if necessary.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I'm not commenting about what other Christians should do. That's between them and God.

But it is interesting that we look up to early Christians who died for Christ without taking up the sword.

There seems to be inconsistencies in how we look back at the martyrs, how we consider the "great cloud of witnesses", how we think of the martyrs at the throne and how we live our lives.
 
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percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AustinC said:
And fighting FOR that "oppressive" government. This war was really the first Civil War in the colonies. Not everyone supported the rebellion.

Revelation 13:10 indicates that those Christians who rise up against the worldly government, controlled by Satan, and fight back, will die in that fight. God is saying to lay down the weapon and entrust our souls to His care.
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Were the victors the choice of God?

Did the war itself take place relative to the plan of God or not according to God's plan and God adjusted to it?

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. Deut 32:8

Maybe some of them out grew their space. Who knows.
 
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percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AustinC said:
And fighting FOR that "oppressive" government. This war was really the first Civil War in the colonies. Not everyone supported the rebellion.

Revelation 13:10 indicates that those Christians who rise up against the worldly government, controlled by Satan, and fight back, will die in that fight. God is saying to lay down the weapon and entrust our souls to His care.
Click to expand...

Were the victors the choice of God?

Did the war itself take place relative to the plan of God or not according to God's plan and God adjusted to it?

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. Deut 32:8

Maybe some of them out grew their space. Who knows.
 
5 point Gillinist

5 point Gillinist

Active Member
That's all fine and well for those who believe that self-defense is unbiblical. I don't, however, believe that it is loving my neighbor to stand by and watch them be murdered, raped, etc. If you could find a passage in the word proclaiming otherwise I would be interested, or if you can tell me why it IS in fact loving to stand by and allow it, I would be extremely intrigued to see that. Until then I will feel no pang of conscience about using deadly force to stop an individual from committing a violent crime.
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
percho said:
Did the war itself take place relative to the plan of God or not according to God's plan and God adjusted to it?
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God is the Creator and ordains all things that come to pass. The Creator acts on His creation, He doesn't react or adjust to His creation,
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
percho said:
Were the victors the choice of God?

Did the war itself take place relative to the plan of God or not according to God's plan and God adjusted to it?

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. Deut 32:8

Maybe some of them out grew their space. Who knows.
Click to expand...
Daniel 11 uses this phrase: "At the appointed time."
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
*Revelation 13:10*
If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

Commentary:
"If any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed ... This means that, "Christianity can never be defended by force; the man who takes the sword perishes by the sword." Ladd interpreted the passage to mean that, "There is divine retribution; the last word is not with the persecutor." Dummelow thought it means, "Christians are not to fight against the persecutors, but are to submit to God's will." In this interpretation Dummelow (1937) anticipated the RSV. Caird likewise accepted this view, basing it on the final clause. Lenski was equally certain that KJV is correct, adding that, "This is not a warning for saints to let the sword alone." He thought the passage was given as a comfort to Christians, the comfort coming from this revelation of, "Where their enemies are going and how those enemies must end." Of these various views, this writer favors those of Ladd and Lenski.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints ... The knowledge that right shall finally triumph, that evil may indeed win the battle but can never win the war, the absolute certainty of the ultimate triumph of righteousness - these are the considerations which, alone, can establish the hearts of Christians when the skies are clouded with the smoke of their burning. Of course, the principle that it is wrong for the church to take up carnal weapons in its own defense is true; but this was not the place for emphasizing such a truth. Where could the comfort have been if that had been John's meaning here?"

Revelation 13 - Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

This seems to indicate that we, the Church, should not fight back against government, even if it is oppressive. If we do, then we will be killed for rising up.
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Dispensationally that is aimed at tribulation saints, not church age saints.
Of course, some principles carry over across dispensations, but failure to observe the dispensational context never results in a correct interpretation.
Also, taking up the sword for warfare, and taking up the sword to defend your wife and kids, are two very different contexts.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
Dispensationally that is aimed at tribulation saints, not church age saints.
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Jesus said, ". . . I will build my church; . . ." So then do you actually believe His church will end and exclude belivers. Revelation 7:14, ". . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. . . ."
 
robycop3

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Salty said:
So are you saying this church member was wrong?
'I believe that I killed an evil': Hero who stopped Texas church shooter speaks
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Of course not ! First off, his job was security guard, so he was just doing his job. Second, it's never wrong to defend innocent people against harm. Third, I believe what God doesn't want is trying to force another to worship Him by threat of force, as Moslems did & do. Remember, Sportzz Fanzz, Jesus made suew His disciples had some swords among themselves-not to force their worship on others, but to defend themselves against highwaymen, etc. But He certainly didn't prohibit the use of force.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Jesus said, ". . . I will build my church; . . ." So then do you actually believe His church will end and exclude belivers. Revelation 7:14, ". . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. . . ."
Click to expand...

Not all believers are part of the church, the body of Christ.
There are different saved spiritual entities:
Israel the wife of the Father
The church is the wife of the Son (all who are saved by faith alone, from, basically, the cross to the church's rapture)
Then there will guests, queens, maidens, friends, at the wedding.
Tribulation saints are saved, but they do not form a part of the body of Christ.
 
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