Christmas Mass in Rome

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I did not see one person in attendance that could be considered a poverty case or underprivileged. Most men dressed in tuxedos or other highly formalwear the women in formal attire. Those in poverty, which the church espouses as a basic tenet, were not in the least visible. What I witnessed was an expensive production for the wealthy. Seems to me an open display of hipocracy.

Yelsew, just to dispell any notion of hipocracy on your part:

1) When you attended services at your church to honor the coming of the baby Jesus into the world, did you wear your nicest clothes or your oldest and shabbiest?

2) How many homeless people did you pick up on the way to church?

BTW, the local Catholic Church which I attend, distributed over 4,000 gifts of clothing, coats, household items and toys (all new - not used)to the local needy this Christmas. This is in addition to the over 300 Christmas meals contributed, prepared, and delivered by members of my Church. Oh yes, we also had volunteers picking up and driving persons to Mass who otherwise could not get there on their own.

And this sort of thing occurs all year round within the Catholic Church, not just at Christmas.

When someone believes that what they personally witness is all that exists, they come off looking a bit silly.

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

...is where I worship. (And this doesn't even show our gold inlaid chalices, crosses, and other items galore!!) You and I understand that the living place of a king is PALACE, and palaces have a certain look to them.
Brother Ed

Absolutely BEAUTIFUL!

On a similar note, it is likely-true that sometimes the Church loses it's focus, and becomes more concerned with it's buildings than it does it's mission and message. That was the burden in St Francis' heart. And in a run-down country church, Christ spoke to him from a crucifix and said, "rebuild my Church." For a while, Francis took the Lord literally, and began to rebuild the run-down Church building. Later he realized that the 'rebuilding' of the Church was it's heart that had gone cold. Through all the turmoil of various denominations, I believe that the Lord is doing just that today. And I believe that the prayer, "Father, may they be one..." will be answered, to the full, in this century. The wound of 1054 and from the 'Reformation/s' will be healed.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
I did not see one person in attendance that could be considered a poverty case or underprivileged. Most men dressed in tuxedos or other highly formalwear the women in formal attire. Those in poverty, which the church espouses as a basic tenet, were not in the least visible. What I witnessed was an expensive production for the wealthy. Seems to me an open display of hipocracy.

Yelsew, just to dispell any notion of hipocracy on your part:

1) When you attended services at your church to honor the coming of the baby Jesus into the world, did you wear your nicest clothes or your oldest and shabbiest?

2) How many homeless people did you pick up on the way to church?

BTW, the local Catholic Church which I attend, distributed over 4,000 gifts of clothing, coats, household items and toys (all new - not used)to the local needy this Christmas. This is in addition to the over 300 Christmas meals contributed, prepared, and delivered by members of my Church. Oh yes, we also had volunteers picking up and driving persons to Mass who otherwise could not get there on their own.

And this sort of thing occurs all year round within the Catholic Church, not just at Christmas.

When someone believes that what they personally witness is all that exists, they come off looking a bit silly.

</font>[/QUOTE]Catholics have no corner on generosity, they have no corner on caring for the poor, the down trodden, the infirm, etc. Even the "heathen" do those things in abundance. That is not even the issue here.

I simply made an observation of what appeared on my TV screen. The continual close up shots of the opulence on display at St. Peter's was disheartening. There was no humility except perhaps in the case of one attendee who was on her knees beside her pew, and whom the cameras kept returning to. Yes, the one and only was shown on the screen at least 12 times from different angles. Then there was the guy in the jester suit holding some kind of staff that went to his knees a couple times.

The Presbyterian program that I saw was much better because it lacked the opulence and the thrust of the program was on the people who were worshipping. It showed them in prayer at least 5 different times, it showed them singing songs of praise with much zest and joy. The Holy Scriptures were opened and read responsively, the orchestra and chorus were smiling and enjoying the celebration of life in Jesus.

These are merely my observations, and if I could see that kind of difference I'm sure that others who watched both could see the difference too.

There seemed to be much life and joy in the Presbyterian service as opposed to the opulence of the Catholic service.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Brother Jude --

Thank you for your kind words. I am indeed absolutely thrilled to be a member of this parish.

Yet, at the same time, as you said, there is a need for a wake up call in our parish. Many are there, but few are doing. We need to be busier living the Gospel message to our neighbors around us. We need to be standing more for justice for the weakest among us (of a parish of 300+ persons, we cannot even fill one measly bus to go to the great Pro-Life March in January -- SHAME on us!!)

Yelsew, on the altar you see through the doors of the iconostasis, there is a beautiful little carved wooden Tabernacle. It has been carved to look just like a parish in the Old Country. Jesus lives there, for inside is kept the consecrated Host. As pointed out, this corresponds to the Ark of the Covenant, in which God came down to live among His people.

He loves us. He wants to be with us in the most intimate way possible despite the separation of flesh and spirit. That was the purpose of the Incarnation (along with a few other purposes).

At Christmas we sing the phrase "God is with us" over and over as a response to verses. And indeed, He is with us, just as He was in Rome on Christmas Eve.

And we treat Him like He is meant to be treated --as royalty!!

Brother Ed

 

[Kathryn]

There seemed to be much life and joy in the Presbyterian service as opposed to the opulence of the Catholic service.

My step-son is a Presbyterian minister. I am truly amazed at the salary he makes as a Youth Minister. Even he is a bit embarrased by it, and he is not yet out of Divinity School. As a Pastor he will make over $100,000. His liturgy is very plain and simple, yet his salary is big. I think the Catholics have their priorities right.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There seemed to be much life and joy in the Presbyterian service as opposed to the opulence of the Catholic service.

My step-son is a Presbyterian minister. I am truly amazed at the salary he makes as a Youth Minister. Even he is a bit embarrased by it, and he is not yet out of Divinity School. As a Pastor he will make over $100,000. His liturgy is very plain and simple, yet his salary is big. I think the Catholics have their priorities right. </font>[/QUOTE]I have no knowledge of the salaries of pastors or ministers except that they are normally established in accordance with the ability of the congregation. Payment for services rendered is not at issue here, but if you want to start a thread, and discuss the good, bad and the ugly, related to compensation. I'm sure you will get some participation.

My issue remains with what I observed on my television screen. Some say that I am a poor observer, looking only to accuse the Catholic church for some wrong doing, but that is not the spirit in which I made my observations. I'm simply pointing out what seems to be actions that oppose teachings.

 

[Kathryn]

You missed my point:

"His liturgy is very plain and simple, yet his salary is big. I think the Catholics have their priorities right."

We are talking about liturgy and "opulence".

God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
You missed my point:

"His liturgy is very plain and simple, yet his salary is big. I think the Catholics have their priorities right."

We are talking about liturgy and "opulence".

God Bless

Sounds more like the topic of Justice. Equal pay for equal work, and not opulence.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

The Catholic Church priority on going all out on our worship liturgy, than on our salaries for the clergy is the point I am making.

You also say:
“The Presbyterian program that I saw was much better because it lacked the opulence and the thrust of the program was on the people who were worshipping .”

Catholic emphasis would not be on the people, but the Liturgy of the Word (scriptural readings and Sermon) and the worship of God Himself with us in the feast of heaven on earth. Big difference. I am glad you pointed that out. My husband as a convert noticed that difference right away.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew:

The Catholic Church priority on going all out on our worship liturgy, than on our salaries for the clergy is the point I am making.

You also say:
“The Presbyterian program that I saw was much better because it lacked the opulence and the thrust of the program was on the people who were worshipping .”

Catholic emphasis would not be on the people, but the Liturgy of the Word (scriptural readings and Sermon) and the worship of God Himself with us in the feast of heaven on earth. Big difference. I am glad you pointed that out. My husband as a convert noticed that difference right away.

But the Christ's emphasis was, and remains on the people. He came to seek and to save the people, and in fact shunned the opulence of the temples and priests. He no doubt enjoyed the fact that many came to believe in him and while they worship Him he is among them bringing them joy and exhuberence. The difference that I observed in the Mass vs the Presbyterian service is the joy and exhuberance of the worshippers.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

But the Christ's emphasis was, and remains on the people. He came to seek and to save the people, and in fact shunned the opulence of the temples and priests. He no doubt enjoyed the fact that many came to believe in him and while they worship Him he is among them bringing them joy and exhuberence. The difference that I observed in the Mass vs the Presbyterian service is the joy and exhuberance of the worshippers.

Our emphasis in worship is on Him and not on ourselves. The Catholic show is not going to emphasis the joy and exuberance of the worshippers.

God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

I noticed! As I noticed the emphasis was on the opulence!

It seems to me that if one is "set free" there would be jubulation in worship. If you're saved and you know it, tell your face! The birth of a child always brings joy to the face! The birth of a savior should bring jubulation beyond the face! The celebration of that birth should likewise brighten the demeanor of all celebrants.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

 

[Kathryn]

The emphasis of the Catholic Christmas made for TV program would be on filming the liturgy not filming the worshipers. Catholics deep in prayer and worship may look strange to you. We don’t worry about that. There is not much praying together to God on your knees in a Presbyterian service. Too Catholic. Of course that is just how Jesus taught us to pray. My husband says the contrast with his former Protestant church's emphasis on fellowship, rather than worship, was a big reason he got real interested in the Catholic Church. He says it was like night and day to him. I was surprised with all the closed Protestant churches we passed Christmas day. Seems many have no services at all.

 

[Yelsew]

Ya, sad isn't it. But most protestants believe in being home with the family celebrating with the people with whom you have the greatest intimacy, your family. There are 51 other weeks to get together with you church family.

 

[trying2understand]

Yelsew, you made an end run around my question concerning how many homeless you picked up on your way to church Chistmas. It apepars that you have a different standard for Catholics than you have for yourself. Catholics are supposed to drag the homeless to Mass and put it on TV so that you can see it, but you have no such expectation for yourself.

Ditto with how you dress for church on Christmas. Catholics should not wear their nicer clothes, but you are not willing to tell me whether you wore your nicer or your shabbier clothes.

You get no points for candor.

You also did not respond to my questions concerning God instructing the building of the Temple.

Come on, it can't all be one way here. We're suposed to be having a discussion.

Now as for "jubilation", how do you feel about charismatics? They get hopping in their services. Any opinions on that?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Ya, sad isn't it. But most protestants believe in being home with the family celebrating with the people with whom you have the greatest intimacy, your family. There are 51 other weeks to get together with you church family.

Wow, I didn't see that one coming!

You are right it is sad.

How about celebrating with your family in giving praise and thanks to God along with your larger family (the Church).

Yelsew, you seem to have fallen to simply taking shots now, rather than answering with sincerity.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

But most protestants believe in being home with the family celebrating with the people with whom you have the greatest intimacy, your family. There are 51 other weeks to get together with you church family.

That is the difference....fellowship vs. worship (praying together, and joining in the feast of heaven and earth together) in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Most Catholics worship God with our family. Even the 3 magi didn't stay at home with their families. They came to worship the King. I don't see why so many Protestants prefer staying home with the family, when the whole family can worship together as the Body of Christ in the house of God.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Yelsew, you made an end run around my question concerning how many homeless you picked up on your way to church Chistmas. It apepars that you have a different standard for Catholics than you have for yourself. Catholics are supposed to drag the homeless to Mass and put it on TV so that you can see it, but you have no such expectation for yourself.

Ditto with how you dress for church on Christmas. Catholics should not wear their nicer clothes, but you are not willing to tell me whether you wore your nicer or your shabbier clothes.

You get no points for candor.

You also did not respond to my questions concerning God instructing the building of the Temple.

Come on, it can't all be one way here. We're suposed to be having a discussion.

Now as for "jubilation", how do you feel about charismatics? They get hopping in their services. Any opinions on that?

Due to illness, in which I was not able to attend the church of my choice this year I did not pick up anyone and take them to church, neither did I dress for the occasion, I remained in my home taking care of business, and watching others attend their church services on TV. My Christmas attire this year was sleeping trousers, and a very comfortable soft shirt, and cushion sole socks. I didn't even shave or brush my hair. I did brush my teeth and took a long hot shower during the afternoon. For supper I had a sourdough bread bowl filled with chunky homemade Clam Chowder, accompanied with steamed broccoli, and a cup of hot apple cider. After supper, I sat at my Technics KN6000 keyboard and played for a couple hours, then turned the TV on and watched. I even turned on my computer and scanned some favorite WEB Sites for anything that might be new or that I had missed on earlier visits.

As for the Temple, God's instructions were to His Chosen People to teach them what 400 years of captivity denied them. It also served to prevent the sin of larseny concerning the "wealth" they brought out of egypt with them. That which was part of the temple is less susceptable to theft. It has nothing to do with the "church" of the Gentiles which is faith in Jesus Christ in the hearts of believers. The Temple building instructions are not applicable to the Believers in Jesus Christ.

I have no opinion on Charismatics, their worship is a matter of style. If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, it does not concern me how they worship him, that's between them and the object of their worship.

There, now it's your turn!

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I have no opinion on Charismatics, their worship is a matter of style. If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, it does not concern me how they worship him, that's between them and the object of their worship.

Amazing, yet how Catholics worship IS of concern to you? C'mon, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Ya, sad isn't it. But most protestants believe in being home with the family celebrating with the people with whom you have the greatest intimacy, your family. There are 51 other weeks to get together with you church family.

Wow, I didn't see that one coming!

You are right it is sad.

How about celebrating with your family in giving praise and thanks to God along with your larger family (the Church).

Yelsew, you seem to have fallen to simply taking shots now, rather than answering with sincerity. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you find something wrong with biological family 'in-home' worship of God on Christmas? Afterall there are gifts to open for those who do open them on Christmas day. There are preparations for family guests, you remember the part of the shepherders visit to the manger, do you not? Then there is the drudgery of course of cleaning up after the guests are gone and the festivities are over.

As for pot-shots, you express your opinion, I express mine, what's wrong with that? What part of give and take do you not understand? If what I post troubles you take a shot or two of your own. Who cares?