Christmas Mass in Rome

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
I have no opinion on Charismatics, their worship is a matter of style. If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, it does not concern me how they worship him, that's between them and the object of their worship.

Amazing, yet how Catholics worship IS of concern to you? C'mon, that doesn't make any sense. </font>[/QUOTE]Charismatics are not normally televised globally as "mainstream" Catholics are in prime time. Perhaps if they were I would have made observations regarding their worship too!

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Charismatics are not normally televised globally as "mainstream" Catholics are in prime time. Perhaps if they were I would have made observations regarding their worship too!

Don't backpeddle. This is what you said:

"If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, it does not concern me how they worship him, that's between them and the object of their worship."

Catholics believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, but you ARE concerned how we worship Him; you do not leave it to us and the object of our worship. You ARE having a double standard, and you cannot deny that unless you retract what you wrote.

 

[mioque]

A history lesson:
When the Reformation was in full swing Austria seriously considered joining the Protestant side of things.
Instead of the usual "let's kill eachother in the streets" approach to religious debating that was the standard in those days, it was a struggle of he who can convert the most people to his form of Christianity wins.
The Jesuits vs. the assorted Protestant ministers.
both sides had more or less the same amount of funds.
The Jesuits needed to waste (?) a large amount of their funding on opulent churches filled with very expensive artwork (make no mistake Barok artwork does not come cheap).
Such was the price for their approach.
Nonetheless Austria is nowadays a RC country.
You see, the Reformed side was spending money like water on salaries.
Celibate employees are a lot cheaper. So the Jesuits outnumbered their Protestant counterparts 4 to 1.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Charismatics are not normally televised globally as "mainstream" Catholics are in prime time. Perhaps if they were I would have made observations regarding their worship too!

Don't backpeddle. This is what you said:

"If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, it does not concern me how they worship him, that's between them and the object of their worship."

Catholics believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, but you ARE concerned how we worship Him; you do not leave it to us and the object of our worship. You ARE having a double standard, and you cannot deny that unless you retract what you wrote. </font>[/QUOTE]Clearly you overlooked the words in a couple of my posts that stated that "I observed" those things. I commented on my observations. Do you think that I can change anything associated with the Roman church by making my observations known?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by mioque:
A history lesson:
When the Reformation was in full swing Austria seriously considered joining the Protestant side of things.
Instead of the usual "let's kill eachother in the streets" approach to religious debating that was the standard in those days, it was a struggle of he who can convert the most people to his form of Christianity wins.
The Jesuits vs. the assorted Protestant ministers.
both sides had more or less the same amount of funds.
The Jesuits needed to waste (?) a large amount of their funding on opulent churches filled with very expensive artwork (make no mistake Barok artwork does not come cheap).
Such was the price for their approach.
Nonetheless Austria is nowadays a RC country.
You see, the Reformed side was spending money like water on salaries.
Celibate employees are a lot cheaper. So the Jesuits outnumbered their Protestant counterparts 4 to 1.

Clever, but historical accuracy is not your forte!

 

[mioque]

"Clever,"
I was going for entertaining myself.

"but historical accuracy is not your forte! "
What may I ask was inaccurate about my little tale?

By the way, is your health improving?

 

[Glen Seeker]

If a very important person were coming to your house for a celebration, Would you break out the paper plates, plastic forks and wear your shabbiest, rattiest clothes for the occasion?

Neither would we.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by mioque:
"Clever,"
I was going for entertaining myself.

"but historical accuracy is not your forte! "
What may I ask was inaccurate about my little tale?

By the way, is your health improving?

Yes, thank you, I am improving though the pain associated with the condition has not subsided enough yet for me to be considered as "active". I am able to get up for a couple hours at a time. How kind of you to ask.

 

[mioque]

Yelsew
"How kind of you to ask. "
My mother tried very hard to raise a polite, considerate daughter. Apparently it didn't fail completely.

You did quote my whole post, but you didn't answer both questions.

 

[Kathryn]

Mioque:

A history lesson:
When the Reformation was in full swing Austria seriously considered joining the Protestant side of things.
Instead of the usual "let's kill eachother in the streets" approach to religious debating that was the standard in those days, it was a struggle of he who can convert the most people to his form of Christianity wins.
The Jesuits vs. the assorted Protestant ministers.
both sides had more or less the same amount of funds.
The Jesuits needed to waste (?) a large amount of their funding on opulent churches filled with very expensive artwork (make no mistake Barok artwork does not come cheap).
Such was the price for their approach.
Nonetheless Austria is nowadays a RC country.
You see, the Reformed side was spending money like water on salaries.
Celibate employees are a lot cheaper. So the Jesuits outnumbered their Protestant counterparts 4 to 1.

Thanks for the history lesson. Those Jesuits are smart guys. I understand the Presbyterian Church, especially smaller ones, typically spends 70%-90% of their budget on salaries. They also have a clergy shortage in the smaller, less afluent areas and an overabundance of clergy wanting the bigger more affluent areas. They also don’t want to be moved around, because most have spouses with jobs, children in schools, family responsibilities.

The Catholic celibate clergy waste (?) money on things like building churches that last generations, and stained glass windows that teach the gospel in pictures. The denominations that are spending so much on large salaries are not planning very well for the future. It’s short sighted. Having a lot of kids help the church to grow too. They are the future.

God Bless

 

[mioque]

In defense of Presbyterianism.
The moment you realize that: "It is cheaper" is one of the big reasons for widespread celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church it starts to look less like glorious theology and more like penny pinching frugality.

 

[Carson Weber]

The Jesuits needed to waste (?) a large amount of their funding on opulent churches filled with very expensive artwork

Since when was giving glory to God a waste? Isn't that the very telos of created being?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
The Jesuits needed to waste (?) a large amount of their funding on opulent churches filled with very expensive artwork

Since when was giving glory to God a waste? Isn't that the very telos of created being?

Where in the Words of God does one find that material things bring honor and Glory to God? When did he tell us to make graven images, or to create expensive artwork, or built grand edifices to bring Him Honor and Glory? DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT GOD IS SPIRIT? What possible good are material things to the living God who is Spirit who at the sound of his voice created all there is? What in the world are you thinking? What school are you going to? I want to warn all my friends so they do not allow their children to go there. Your school don't produce thinkers, it produces memorizers! Memorize the party line, get your diploma!

The Catholic church uses imagery for human purposes ONLY, and NOT for honoring deity. Show me even one scripture where God is impressed with man's things! How about one where God stops to admire the handiwork of man? Show me one where God encourages man to make statues of him, or his Apostles. Tell us where Jesus said to keep him on the cross for 2000 years! The protestant crosses are all empty! The Catholic Crosses are all occupied.

Come on Carson, Think things through! Don't continue to fall for the lies!

 

[TP]

Greetings,

The Band euipment at the Non-denom baptist style church next door cost more than All the chalices in our local church. Not to mention the Special lighting equipment, spot lights, special effects(aftificial fog,etc) equipment. The Cost to gift an experience to the people in A LOT MORE than catholics are paying for their elements for worship.
Also, We have a large cathedral. It is filled with Art(All around the Beatitudes). All Stone. It was build in the 1870s. With all its Marble and all, it cost $35,000 in its day. Now if we spread that cost over 130 years, and divide by the millions of worshippers, I would say they made a pretty good deal. You see Catholics build for centuries because we expect our faith to be hear for longer than 20 years. If you put up a pole building for a worship space it says two things: That you care less for God than the bank cares for its money(banks build in stone), AND you don't expect your church to last beyond one generation.
People Complain about St. Peters, but remember, that church is 500 years old. That is a pretty good deal over time. In france All the cathedrals are are 700 years old or more.

just some thoughts

peace

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

I have no opinion on Charismatics, their worship is a matter of style. If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, it does not concern me how they worship him, that's between them and the object of their worship.

There, now it's your turn!

So for some, how they worship is not a concern of yours, but how Catholics worship IS a concern of yours?

Careful, your bias is showing.

 

[mioque]

TP
They've got artificial fog?!
We've got 1 keyboard.

"Show me even one scripture where God is impressed with man's things!"
The tower of Bable? He wasn't pleased, but humanity actually had Him worried for a moment.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by mioque:
TP
They've got artificial fog?!
We've got 1 keyboard.

"Show me even one scripture where God is impressed with man's things!"
The tower of Bable? He wasn't pleased, but humanity actually had Him worried for a moment.

NO Mioque, I wouldn't call what God said or did concerning that tower to be a matter of worry, but rather disgust! You see, God knew that the tower could only be built to the height that man could breath...about 20 thousand feet. God himself built towers that exceed that by 10 thousand feet, and there is not a human living that can survive very long, a matter of hours at best, at that altitude without artificial life support. So, it should be obvious to you that God could not have been worried about man's ability to reach heaven by building towers. So you'll have to come up with some other reason for God to act in that situation.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:

I have no opinion on Charismatics, their worship is a matter of style. If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, it does not concern me how they worship him, that's between them and the object of their worship.

There, now it's your turn!

So for some, how they worship is not a concern of yours, but how Catholics worship IS a concern of yours?

Careful, your bias is showing.

</font>[/QUOTE]I am under the impression that the post that introduced "charismatics" was dealing with Catholics. So it seems that your bias against "charismatic Catholics" has blinded you.

My Observation of the Christmas Mass dealt with the obvious opulence on display and the choreography of the program, All intended to convey some message other than the one that I received. What I received was a demonstration of religiosity uncharacteristic of the biblical depictions of events surrounding the birth of Jesus, the Christ! Hense my comments!

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:
How does your home assembly handle this commission by Jesus Christ? :

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

 

[Yelsew]

TP,
Your last post is well thought out and received in the spirit intended. You make excellent points to ponder, and I shall.

As for building less than permanent structures,

Revelation 20:1. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; the first heaven and the first earth had disappeared now, and there was no longer any sea.

It seems that nothing of this earth is permanent!

Additionally, It is the Word of God that lasts forever. There is no scripture to support investment in permanent earth-based things, but instead we are to lay up our treasures in Heaven. Nowhere in Scriptures do we find St. Peter's Basilica. God is fully capable of speaking into existance whatever grand and glorious edifices He desires for our worship of Him.

So, I believe my comments are valid regarding the church that claims it hold a corner on humility! It seems to be mere vanity on display!