Christmas Mass in Rome

[Kathryn]

In case you missed this Yelsew:

How does your home assembly obey this commission by Jesus Christ? :

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew:
How does your home assembly handle this commission by Jesus Christ? :

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

Though I am not affiliated with any particular assembly, those that I worship with all do this in the tried and true way. They accept willing people, train them, and send them, providing support through a central organization that performs the management functions and payment for such support based mainly upon known factors. Support includes, but not all inclusively, planning for medical needs, daily sustainance, material supplies, education, and the retirement of those they send. I believe you will, if you observe, see that the Catholic church does likewise. Where do you think we got the idea?

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

Though I am not affiliated with any particular assembly, those that I worship with all do this in the tried and true way. They accept willing people, train them, and send them, providing support through a central organization that performs the management functions and payment for such support based mainly upon known factors. Support includes, but not all inclusively, planning for medical needs, daily sustainance, material supplies, education, and the retirement of those they send. I believe you will, if you observe, see that the Catholic church does likewise. Where do you think we got the idea?

So, you are saying your home assembly does none of this, but other people do. You first say you are not affiliated with any particular assembly, but end up calling the people who do these things “we”. I was especially wondering how your home assembly was baptizing the disciples of all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and how you could be teaching those you baptize to observe all that Jesus commanded.

 

[Yelsew]

Kathryn,

So, you are saying your home assembly does none of this, but other people do. You first say you are not affiliated with any particular assembly, but end up calling the people who do these things “we”. I was especially wondering how your home assembly was baptizing the disciples of all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and how you could be teaching those you baptize to observe all that Jesus commanded.

I am not a "church member" nor am I a "denomination member". The "we" is a reference to the obvious Protestant vs Catholic division among believers in Jesus Christ. As you may have recognized in my posts, I am not an adherent to the "CATHOLIC ONLY" beliefs, therefore one would only categorize me as a protestant. The majority of protestants observe and teach all that Jesus commanded, limiting themselves to those things only and not introducing heathenist practices such as idols or graven images, or alterations to the teachings of the "Holy Bible" which the Catholics so obediently preserved over the years.

The dominant method of baptism for protestants worldwide, is by immersion. There are minor variation to this method among several denominations of protestants, but the immersion method remains dominant. The one who does the baptizing, by pronouncement declares the baptism to be done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Is that different than the Catholic method? The teaching of the commandments of Jesus is directly out of the Holy Bible. I hope, but see no evidence of the truth, that Catholics also teach directly out of the Holy Bible, and not by "oral tradition", for if they are by "oral tradition" their teachings are generational, meaning that only the oral traditions of the most recent generations, those still living are taught!

 

[Charles33]

I have one concern regarding all of this discussion.

It is indeed a matter of degrees. One could well take the 'tack' that Christians of any denomination should not wear nice clothes to church, or ever for that matter. And they should meet in private homes only so as not to waste any money on temporary buildings of this earth. And for that matter, all Christian homes should be of very low price and quality, so as to maximize money available for humanitarian spending.

So Yelsew - in all sincerity, what is the difference between one group wasting money to a larger degree on worship and the other bretheren down the street wasting money on worship to a smaller degree, but still wasting it, spending it on comfort (air), carpet, nice hymnals, and pews? Where does one draw the line? Your congregations' sin is less sinful than the Catholic congregations?

Now seriously, I mean this. Why not buy metal folding chairs, or stand, so more money can be spent on the poor, and the homeless? Is there not a log in your eye as you try to take out the spec from your brothers and sisters?

 

[mioque]

"Now seriously, I mean this. Why not buy metal folding chairs, or stand, so more money can be spent on the poor, and the homeless?"
There are actually a couple of denominations that don't use pews or chairs.
In their case it's probably to help cover the incense bill. (kidding about that last part).

Yelsew
Your interpretation of the tower of Bable story is questionable...
Ofcourse so was mine.

 

[mioque]

"Now seriously, I mean this. Why not buy metal folding chairs, or stand, so more money can be spent on the poor, and the homeless?"
There are actually a couple of denominations (like the Copts)that don't use pews or chairs.
In their case it's probably to help cover the incense bill. (kidding about that last part).

Yelsew
Your interpretation of the tower of Bable story is questionable...
On the other hand I don't even believe the interpretation I posted, so who am I to argue? (that's a rethorical question, don't bother answering).

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Charles33:
I have one concern regarding all of this discussion.

It is indeed a matter of degrees. One could well take the 'tack' that Christians of any denomination should not wear nice clothes to church, or ever for that matter. And they should meet in private homes only so as not to waste any money on temporary buildings of this earth. And for that matter, all Christian homes should be of very low price and quality, so as to maximize money available for humanitarian spending.

So Yelsew - in all sincerity, what is the difference between one group wasting money to a larger degree on worship and the other bretheren down the street wasting money on worship to a smaller degree, but still wasting it, spending it on comfort (air), carpet, nice hymnals, and pews? Where does one draw the line? Your congregations' sin is less sinful than the Catholic congregations?

Now seriously, I mean this. Why not buy metal folding chairs, or stand, so more money can be spent on the poor, and the homeless? Is there not a log in your eye as you try to take out the spec from your brothers and sisters?

Charles33,
You may be right, but Please be reminded that I was posting my observations of a globally televised exhibition that is supposed to be representative of Christianity to the whole world. I am un-hyphenated Christian, meaning that I owe allegeance to no faction, denomination, or congregation calling itself Christian. My allegience is totally to the one called the Christ, who is Jesus of Nazareth. My observations are made from that perspective. Can you imagine what God must have thought about it from His perspective? Can you imagine what the people of the world who saw that spectacle think of Christians? No wonder Christians are being persecuted the world over. No wonder the ACLU us so devoted to removing Christianity and all its trappings from the American scene.

AND YES, the same thing applies to all Factions of Christianity who are attempting to have their heaven on earth!

 

[Charles33]

I am un-hyphenated Christian, meaning that I owe allegeance to no faction, denomination, or congregation calling itself Christian. My allegience is totally to the one called the Christ, who is Jesus of Nazareth. My observations are made from that perspective. Can you imagine what God must have thought about it from His perspective?

Well thats a convenience!

So you don't assemble together as a corporate body with any Christians as Hebrews commands us? "Do forsake the assembling of yourselves together as is the habit of some".

Whether you do or not, you are probably not consistent with your own judgements. Do you buy nice things for your home, which is the Church for you if you are truly independent as you say? Have you sold all you have and given to the poor? Do you want for anything, your clothing, give thought to what you shall eat from day to day?

I think what God saw was his Church worshiping Him and giving Him honor in the liturgy and reading of His Word and worship of Jesus. During worship, your eyes and mind must focus on the object of true adoration, not on men, not on shiny objects and nice clothes. The King of Kings seated at the right hand of God Almighty, is adorned as a glorified King. The streets of heaven are gold. The ark that housed God and the old temples were ornate by command of the same God we worship in spirit and truth today. He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. He was jealous back then, He is jelous today. He has never been opposed to men worshiping Him as he is deserving to be worshiped.

I was raised a Baptist. I love the Baptists. I am Catholic now. I have come to find that Liturgical worship is so very charismatic and exciting. It is a beautiful way to worship a God who deserves our worship.

So getting back to your independence, do you think when Jesus commisioned the Apostles to go into all the world baptizing them, teaching them all He commanded, that they all just disbanded, as independents, accountable to nobody, and strode off into the sunset? And did these independently determine your New Testament canon? And did these also not meet in Jeruselm in council as a body of accountable believers and determine as a body that Gentiles were also the object of Christ's salvation graces?

And also, not to harp on you too much here, but you are indeed a denomination, even if unto yourself. Most definately! You hold most likely some form of Evangelical Fundamentalism of some brand, whether you affiliate with these believers or not, you indeed hold their doctrines, or the doctrines of some Protestant group. A denomination, is nothing more than a sub-grouping of believers, of which you admit to being the smallest component. And when it comes to matter of interpretation, you are the final authority, using of course the Bible as your guide, but your concience and your feelings as to the final authority on the meaning of such.

I am really not trying to attack you for real, I am just balking temporarily at your independence thats all. I'll get to know you and get over it, like with 3angelsmom. Once you get the whole picture, after 50 posts, it gets easier.

 

[CatholicConvert]

No wonder the ACLU is so devoted to removing Christianity and all its trappings from the American scene.

The ACLU is devoted to the destruction of Christianity because they are a bunch of humanistic, God hating Jews who despite anything whatsoever to do with morality and decency.

Has nothing to do with the kind of package that Christianity comes in.

Brother Ed

 

[Bro. Curtis]

C'mon, Brother Ed. Tell us how you REALLY feel.

I call it the "Anti-Christ-Lawsuit-Union" (Stole that from Glenn Beck). People will say they stick up for both sides, but I say they hate anything to do with God, and also say that this situiation will get worse before it gets better.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

No wonder Christians are being persecuted the world over.

Most of the Christians being persecuted the world over are Catholics including those in China, Africa, and Indonesia which you mentioned earlier. You seem to think the persecutors have valid reasons, could you share those reasons?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Do you have stats to prove this ?

 

[Kathryn]

No I don't have the statistics. The Catholic Church is underground in China. It is illegal to belong to the Catholic Church. One of the reasons Catholics are persecuted more than other Christian groups is because Catholics go to Mass. We can't stay home with our bible. It is much easier to persecute a group that gathers together like this.

 

[Yelsew]

I am un-hyphenated Christian, meaning that I owe allegeance to no faction, denomination, or congregation calling itself Christian. My allegience is totally to the one called the Christ, who is Jesus of Nazareth. My observations are made from that perspective. Can you imagine what God must have thought about it from His perspective?

Well thats a convenience!

So you don't assemble together as a corporate body with any Christians as Hebrews commands us? "Do forsake the assembling of yourselves together as is the habit of some".

You are reading into what I said. What I said is that I have no "official allegience" to any through an official membership in their organization.

I Confess Jesus to be my personal saviour, believing Him to God the Son, The long awaited messiah. That alone makes me a part of the Body of Christ, and it makes me a full fledged, fully integrated part of the BRIDE OF CHRIST! I am within, not without!

I have been baptised by immersion in obedience to Jesus command to do so, and because I believe that my baptism is an outward sign of my inward faith in Jesus. My baptism just happened to be administered by a Baptist Minister, in icy cold "Bull Creek" in Southwest Missouri, in November. Did that make me a member of the Baptist Church? The Baptist Denomination? No it did not, because I did not petition the church or denomination for membership. I am baptized in accordance with my faith which is Christian!

I attend the church of my choice on any given worship session. Today Methodist, tomorrow Baptist, next day Catholic, etc. I do not fail to gather among believers, I worship with all who believe, as I do, that Jesus is the Son of God the Christ!

You, in your churches in which you are registered 'official' members, have welcomed me to worship among you, even oft inviting me to align myself with your congregation and it's denomination. I respectfully decline your invitation to "official membership", even so, you continue to allow me to worship with you. Ain't God good?

Do you find sin in what I do?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
C'mon, Brother Ed. Tell us how you REALLY feel.

I call it the "Anti-Christ-Lawsuit-Union" (Stole that from Glenn Beck). People will say they stick up for both sides, but I say they hate anything to do with God, and also say that this situiation will get worse before it gets better.

If true, then why do they not take up the cause against Islam? Islam has it's God! What about Buddhism? It too has its God! Hinduism the same.

The ACLU's ONLY target, is Christianity!

 

[GraceSaves]

Actually Buddhism is nontheistic.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> No wonder Christians are being persecuted the world over.

Most of the Christians being persecuted the world over are Catholics including those in China, Africa, and Indonesia which you mentioned earlier. You seem to think the persecutors have valid reasons, could you share those reasons? </font>[/QUOTE]There are many, but they boil down to 'perceived hypocracy' of the Christian church!

One example: Right here in Los Angeles, the archdiosis under Cardinale Mahoney, built a HUGE ultra modern Multimillion Dollar cathedral, surrounded by pockets of poverty in Los Angeles. Why not keep the old facility and raise the education level of those in the poverty zone to enable them to come out of poverty? Perceived hypocracy!

I'm sure that you all could give other examples of "perceived hypocracy" such as the globally televised Christmas mass featuring the opulence of the church. Not that the content of the mass was not correct, but in the surroundings? Give us a break! If Christ was still in the grave, He'd be rolling over and over, uncomfortable with what was on display.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Actually Buddhism is nontheistic.

Then who do Buddhists pray to when they put their hands together, bowing, lighting insence, etc. They believe there is a being or essence greater than themselves to which they owe allegience? True, It may not be what westerners perceive to be God, that is, one who gets up out of bed puts pants on then a grand flowing robe and who then goes and sits on a regal throne for his shift.
But they do believe in "recycling" Here today as man, come back tomorrow as dog, or worm, etc.

Buddhism is, by the way, a works based religion.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
No I don't have the statistics. The Catholic Church is underground in China. It is illegal to belong to the Catholic Church. One of the reasons Catholics are persecuted more than other Christian groups is because Catholics go to Mass. We can't stay home with our bible. It is much easier to persecute a group that gathers together like this.

Seems you'd get the message that going to mass is hazardous to your health! While being discrete in your soul winning leads to longer life. No one is exempt from death, but hastening it for the sake of holding mass seems foolish!