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"The dominant method of baptism for protestants worldwide, is by immersion."
I have my doubts when it comes to this statement, sprinkeling water (usually on babies) is very widespread.
Curtis
"Do you have stats to prove this ?"
I've seen stats from 'Open Doors' suggesting that pre-reformation Christians (Catholics + the Eastern Orthodox + the Oriental Orthodox) clearly outnumber the post-reformation Christians (all other Christians) when it comes to being persecuted worldwide.
"do you find sin in what I do"
ABSOLUTELY.
I'm not going to defend Buddhism, but you clearly don't know much about it Yelsew.
I have my doubts when it comes to this statement, sprinkeling water (usually on babies) is very widespread.
Curtis
"Do you have stats to prove this ?"
I've seen stats from 'Open Doors' suggesting that pre-reformation Christians (Catholics + the Eastern Orthodox + the Oriental Orthodox) clearly outnumber the post-reformation Christians (all other Christians) when it comes to being persecuted worldwide.
"do you find sin in what I do"
ABSOLUTELY.
I'm not going to defend Buddhism, but you clearly don't know much about it Yelsew.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
St. Paul in Holy Scripture explained it this way:
"...but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,..."1 Corinthians 1:23
God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]What in the world does that answer?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
You of course believe that sprinklin babies is true baptism, but you can produce no scripture that says to do so!Originally posted by mioque:
"The dominant method of baptism for protestants worldwide, is by immersion."
I have my doubts when it comes to this statement, sprinkeling water (usually on babies) is very widespread.
Curtis
"Do you have stats to prove this ?"
I've seen stats from 'Open Doors' suggesting that pre-reformation Christians (Catholics + the Eastern Orthodox + the Oriental Orthodox) clearly outnumber the post-reformation Christians (all other Christians) when it comes to being persecuted worldwide.
"do you find sin in what I do"
ABSOLUTELY.
I'm not going to defend Buddhism, but you clearly don't know much about it Yelsew.
I do not believe sprinkling of babies is true baptism because in is not a willful act of the baby.
Yelsew, you said:
Matthew 10:38
"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mark 8:34
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Luke 9:23
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
God Bless
[ December 30, 2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
Even one Mass is worth hastening death, in spite of it appearing to be foolishness to some: “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16 The Apostles all preached "Christ crucified" and suffered persecution for it. We all have to pick up our cross and follow Him.
Matthew 10:38
"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mark 8:34
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Luke 9:23
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
God Bless
[ December 30, 2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
GraceSaves
New Member
Buddhists aren't praying, as such; they are meditating. You are confusing them with Hinduism. While Buddhism came out of Hinduism, it is not the same thing. Buddha was the "enlightened one" who showed them the path to freedom from the cycle of rebirth. They do not believe in the self, and to free themselves from samsara, they must act as if they are not acting at all, that is, without any hint of selfish motive. Any act that has a motive that gains anything for the self begets karma.
Is it a works-based religion? To some degree, but not in the manner you are speaking of (because they do not believe they are actually doing the work; they don't even believe there is a SELF to be doing the works).
I'm not defending Buddhists (so I hope you don't waste precious time accusing me of it). However, I think they, like everyone else, at least deserve a fair representation of their beliefs. Their beliefs are wrong, but they are wrong in and of themselves, and thus misrepresentations are totally unnecessary.
Is it a works-based religion? To some degree, but not in the manner you are speaking of (because they do not believe they are actually doing the work; they don't even believe there is a SELF to be doing the works).
I'm not defending Buddhists (so I hope you don't waste precious time accusing me of it). However, I think they, like everyone else, at least deserve a fair representation of their beliefs. Their beliefs are wrong, but they are wrong in and of themselves, and thus misrepresentations are totally unnecessary.
Speaking of persecution and martyrdom. This is from today's Catholic news:
30-December-2003 -- Vatican Information Service
APOSTOLIC NUNCIO IN BURUNDI KILLED IN ATTACK
VATICAN CITY, DEC 30, 2003 (VIS) - Following is a communique from the Secretariat of State, published late on Monday, December 29, upon the news of the assassination of Archbishop Michael Courtney, apostolic nuncio in Burundi:
"The tragic event took place in Minago, a town 50 kilometers from the capital, Bujumbura, where the prelate had gone in order to carry out pastoral obligations.
"The automobile in which the pontifical representative was traveling this afternoon, with a priest, wounded in the attack, a driver and another person, was shot at with fire arms from a nearby hill. Archbishop Courtney, who was taken with great difficulty to the closest hospital in Bujumbura, did not regain consciousness due to serious wounds which provoked an uncontrollable hemorrhage. Despite the doctors' efforts, the prelate died during emergency surgery.
"Upon hearing the news, the Holy Father recollected himself in prayer, entrusting to Christ, the Good Shepherd, the soul of this faithful and generous servant of the Church and the Holy See, who died while carrying out his difficult mission. Afterward he conveyed to the family members of the late archbishop his profound sentiments of participation in the sorrow that afflicts them.
"Archbishop Michael Aidan Courtney, of Irish origin, was appointed apostolic nuncio of Burundi by His Holiness John Paul II on August 18, 2000. Previously, he had lent his inestimable collaboration in pontifical representations in South Africa, Senegal, India, Yugoslavia and Egypt. Before being appointed to Bujumbura, for almost five years he served as permanent observer of the Holy See to the Council of Europe at Strasbourg, France.
"With the death of Archbishop Courtney, the list of missionaries who have given their life for the Gospel during 2003 grows longer. And now, for the first time, the name of a pontifical representative is added to that list of generous faithful. May the Lord grant them eternal rest!"
30-December-2003 -- Vatican Information Service
APOSTOLIC NUNCIO IN BURUNDI KILLED IN ATTACK
VATICAN CITY, DEC 30, 2003 (VIS) - Following is a communique from the Secretariat of State, published late on Monday, December 29, upon the news of the assassination of Archbishop Michael Courtney, apostolic nuncio in Burundi:
"The tragic event took place in Minago, a town 50 kilometers from the capital, Bujumbura, where the prelate had gone in order to carry out pastoral obligations.
"The automobile in which the pontifical representative was traveling this afternoon, with a priest, wounded in the attack, a driver and another person, was shot at with fire arms from a nearby hill. Archbishop Courtney, who was taken with great difficulty to the closest hospital in Bujumbura, did not regain consciousness due to serious wounds which provoked an uncontrollable hemorrhage. Despite the doctors' efforts, the prelate died during emergency surgery.
"Upon hearing the news, the Holy Father recollected himself in prayer, entrusting to Christ, the Good Shepherd, the soul of this faithful and generous servant of the Church and the Holy See, who died while carrying out his difficult mission. Afterward he conveyed to the family members of the late archbishop his profound sentiments of participation in the sorrow that afflicts them.
"Archbishop Michael Aidan Courtney, of Irish origin, was appointed apostolic nuncio of Burundi by His Holiness John Paul II on August 18, 2000. Previously, he had lent his inestimable collaboration in pontifical representations in South Africa, Senegal, India, Yugoslavia and Egypt. Before being appointed to Bujumbura, for almost five years he served as permanent observer of the Holy See to the Council of Europe at Strasbourg, France.
"With the death of Archbishop Courtney, the list of missionaries who have given their life for the Gospel during 2003 grows longer. And now, for the first time, the name of a pontifical representative is added to that list of generous faithful. May the Lord grant them eternal rest!"
GraceSaves
New Member
Buddhists aren't praying, as such; they are meditating. You are confusing them with Hinduism. While Buddhism came out of Hinduism, it is not the same thing. Buddha was the "enlightened one" who showed them the path to freedom from the cycle of rebirth. They do not believe in the self, and to free themselves from samsara, they must act as if they are not acting at all, that is, without any hint of selfish motive. Any act that has a motive that gains anything for the self begets karma.
Is it a works-based religion? To some degree, but not in the manner you are speaking of (because they do not believe they are actually doing the work; they don't even believe there is a SELF to be doing the works).
I'm not defending Buddhists (so I hope you don't waste precious time accusing me of it). However, I think they, like everyone else, at least deserve a fair representation of their beliefs. Their beliefs are wrong, but they are wrong in and of themselves, and thus misrepresentations are totally unnecessary.
Is it a works-based religion? To some degree, but not in the manner you are speaking of (because they do not believe they are actually doing the work; they don't even believe there is a SELF to be doing the works).
I'm not defending Buddhists (so I hope you don't waste precious time accusing me of it). However, I think they, like everyone else, at least deserve a fair representation of their beliefs. Their beliefs are wrong, but they are wrong in and of themselves, and thus misrepresentations are totally unnecessary.
Yelsew: You say it is the Catholics fault that Christians are persecuted. Here are some of the Catholic missionary martyrs just for 2003
The list of missionaries slain in 2003, according to Fides, includes:
Father Dieudonné Mvuezolo-Tovo of the Democratic Republic of Congo, killed in that country on March 11.
Father Nelson Gomez Bejarano of Colombia, killed there on March 22.
Father Martin Macharia Njoroge of Kenya, killed in Nairobi on April 11.
Father Raphel Ngona of Democratic Republic of Congo, killed there on May 6.
Three students from the minor seminary in Lachor, Uganda, who were killed on May 10. (Another 38 students from the same institution, kidnapped by rebels, are believed to still be captives.)
Fathers Aime Njabu and Francois Xavier Mateso, both of the Democratic Republic of Congo, killed on May 10 along with several parishioners.
Father Jairo Garavito of Colombia, killed there on May 15.
Father Manus Campbell OFM, an Irish missionary working in South Africa, killed near Durban on May 21.
Ana Isabel Sanchez Torralba, a Spanish mission volunteer, killed in Equatorial Guinea on July 1.
Father George Ibrahim of Pakistan, killed there on July 5.
Father Taddeo Gabrieli, OFM Cap, an Italian missionary stationed in Brazil, killed there on July 19.
Father Mario Mantovani, an Italian Comboni missionary, killed in Uganda on August 14.
Brother Godfrey Kiryowa, of Uganda, killed alongside Father Mantovani on August 14.
Father Alphones Kavendiambuku of the Democratic Republic of Congo, killed there on August 26.
Father Lawrence Oyuru of Uganda, killed along with 25 other people in a rebel attack on September 1.
Father William de Jesus Ortez and Jaime Noel Quintanilla of El Salvador, killed inside the cathedral of Santiago de Maria diocese on October 5.
Annalena Tonelli, an Italian medical volunteer, killed on October 5 at a hospital in Somalia.
Father Sanjeevananda Swami of India, killed there on October 7.
Father Saulo Carreno and Maritza Linares, both of Colombia, killed there on November 3.
Father Henry Humberto Lopez Cruz of Lebanon, killed in Colombia on November 3.
Father Jose Rubin Rodriguez of Colombia, killed there sometime after being kidnapped on November 14. (His body was discovered on November 21.)
Father Jose Maria Ruiz Furlan of Guatemala, killed there on December 14.
Father Anton Probst, a German Claretian missionary, killed in Cameroon after midnight Mass on Christmas Day.
Archbishop Michael Courtney, the apostolic nuncio in Burundi, killed there on December 29.
The list of missionaries slain in 2003, according to Fides, includes:
Father Dieudonné Mvuezolo-Tovo of the Democratic Republic of Congo, killed in that country on March 11.
Father Nelson Gomez Bejarano of Colombia, killed there on March 22.
Father Martin Macharia Njoroge of Kenya, killed in Nairobi on April 11.
Father Raphel Ngona of Democratic Republic of Congo, killed there on May 6.
Three students from the minor seminary in Lachor, Uganda, who were killed on May 10. (Another 38 students from the same institution, kidnapped by rebels, are believed to still be captives.)
Fathers Aime Njabu and Francois Xavier Mateso, both of the Democratic Republic of Congo, killed on May 10 along with several parishioners.
Father Jairo Garavito of Colombia, killed there on May 15.
Father Manus Campbell OFM, an Irish missionary working in South Africa, killed near Durban on May 21.
Ana Isabel Sanchez Torralba, a Spanish mission volunteer, killed in Equatorial Guinea on July 1.
Father George Ibrahim of Pakistan, killed there on July 5.
Father Taddeo Gabrieli, OFM Cap, an Italian missionary stationed in Brazil, killed there on July 19.
Father Mario Mantovani, an Italian Comboni missionary, killed in Uganda on August 14.
Brother Godfrey Kiryowa, of Uganda, killed alongside Father Mantovani on August 14.
Father Alphones Kavendiambuku of the Democratic Republic of Congo, killed there on August 26.
Father Lawrence Oyuru of Uganda, killed along with 25 other people in a rebel attack on September 1.
Father William de Jesus Ortez and Jaime Noel Quintanilla of El Salvador, killed inside the cathedral of Santiago de Maria diocese on October 5.
Annalena Tonelli, an Italian medical volunteer, killed on October 5 at a hospital in Somalia.
Father Sanjeevananda Swami of India, killed there on October 7.
Father Saulo Carreno and Maritza Linares, both of Colombia, killed there on November 3.
Father Henry Humberto Lopez Cruz of Lebanon, killed in Colombia on November 3.
Father Jose Rubin Rodriguez of Colombia, killed there sometime after being kidnapped on November 14. (His body was discovered on November 21.)
Father Jose Maria Ruiz Furlan of Guatemala, killed there on December 14.
Father Anton Probst, a German Claretian missionary, killed in Cameroon after midnight Mass on Christmas Day.
Archbishop Michael Courtney, the apostolic nuncio in Burundi, killed there on December 29.
GraceSaves
New Member
Sorry for the triple posting. It told me the board was down for maintainance, so I assumed they weren't going up. When I saw, it was too late to edit them. Again, my apologies!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
If conducting mass is causing all these martyrs, perhaps person to person evangelism is the better approach.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Seems a closer study of the life and teachings of Jesus, the Christ, is in order. You see, Jesus shunned the opulence of the world, where the Catholic church embraces it publically!
People gathered to Jesus because of who he is, and yes, what he does for them. But those who truly believe in him do what he did! And, they do it with humility, not with pomp and pageantry!
Kathryn, you need to develop a critical eye so that you can see the truth of what the Catholic church is presenting to the world. I'm sure the precedings were video taped, so why don't you obtain a copy of it and view it in a private setting, noting all that went on that was presented to the world. Not through emotional or spiritual eyes of the devotee that you are, but through the eyes of one who, not knowing the truth, is seeking to find the truth.
If you do that honestly, you will see a completely different picture than you are presently willing to see.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Then Please follow through with the rest of my suggestion, Play the role of the unbelieving critic, but judgmental of what you see as if your salary (not your faith) depended on it. Tell me what message comes across on the screen of your TV, not based on your long held spiritual imagery, but what actually is on the screen.
Explain the "humility" displayed, afterall, you have heard that this Jesus character is a person of humility. You have heard some of the "street talk" about Christmas, you have heard that "Jesus is the reason for the season" and all that other stuff. You have for years heard the songs "Away in a manger", and "What child is this", and "Mary's little boy child", etc., not to mention all the other deeply religious adorations, so How does what you view on the screen of your TV depict what you've heard about Christmas? What does the opulence you view do to the stories?
Yelsew:
The simple words of the songs written such as Silent Night, Away in a Manger, etc show the two extremes of the Lord’s life…. the manger and the cross. The beginning and the end. The same. He was surrounded by the stable animals in the manger, and between two thieves on the cross. He is the Bread of Life in the food trough, and in the Mass the Bread of Life in the Eucharist. He was laid in swaddling cloths in the manger and swaddling clothes in the tomb. The humility of Jesus Christ coming into the world and laying his head in a cattle feed trough is the same humility of Jesus Christ hanging on the Cross. The manger and the cross are really the same. He was bearing his cross as he entered the world. The manger was the cross accepted by this little baby, true God and true man.
Shepherds and Magi were the only ones that came to worship. The simple and the learned. Poor and rich. The opulence of the magi and the gold, frankincense, and myrrh as precious gifts they offered were accepted by the Christ child, because they worshiped him as the Savior. The fulfillment of His coming is His death on the cross. In the Mass on Christmas day, this same innocent Lamb of God will also be the King of King and the Lord of Lords, as he offers Himself up on the cross as both High priest and victim. The same one and only Sacrifice is made present. The finest vestments signify Him as High priest offering Himself up to God the Father as the slain Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. This is the feast of heaven on earth, the Sacrifice of the Mass.
Like you say, an “unbelieving critic” will see the Mass in the Vatican on Christmas day as foolishness.
God Bless
Impossible. As I watch the video, I can’t ignore the gospel of Jesus Christ as I watch the Mass. I am a Christian. I have heard the gospel. An “unbelieving” critic is going to see foolishness.
The simple words of the songs written such as Silent Night, Away in a Manger, etc show the two extremes of the Lord’s life…. the manger and the cross. The beginning and the end. The same. He was surrounded by the stable animals in the manger, and between two thieves on the cross. He is the Bread of Life in the food trough, and in the Mass the Bread of Life in the Eucharist. He was laid in swaddling cloths in the manger and swaddling clothes in the tomb. The humility of Jesus Christ coming into the world and laying his head in a cattle feed trough is the same humility of Jesus Christ hanging on the Cross. The manger and the cross are really the same. He was bearing his cross as he entered the world. The manger was the cross accepted by this little baby, true God and true man.
Shepherds and Magi were the only ones that came to worship. The simple and the learned. Poor and rich. The opulence of the magi and the gold, frankincense, and myrrh as precious gifts they offered were accepted by the Christ child, because they worshiped him as the Savior. The fulfillment of His coming is His death on the cross. In the Mass on Christmas day, this same innocent Lamb of God will also be the King of King and the Lord of Lords, as he offers Himself up on the cross as both High priest and victim. The same one and only Sacrifice is made present. The finest vestments signify Him as High priest offering Himself up to God the Father as the slain Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. This is the feast of heaven on earth, the Sacrifice of the Mass.
Like you say, an “unbelieving critic” will see the Mass in the Vatican on Christmas day as foolishness.
God Bless
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Well, unless you do, you will never understand the points I made in my observations of the Roman Catholic Mass, attempting to depict very basic and humble Christian belief. You will not see the contradiction between belief and practice.
You will always see me as an open critic of the Catholic church, and never as one who believes the basic tenets of the Christian faith that you believe. You will always see me as an adversary and not a fellow believer, and that is why there is a Catholic vs Protestant state of existance in the Christian faith.
You will always see me as an open critic of the Catholic church, and never as one who believes the basic tenets of the Christian faith that you believe. You will always see me as an adversary and not a fellow believer, and that is why there is a Catholic vs Protestant state of existance in the Christian faith.