I would like this thread to stay on the topic of alcohol (wine specifically) as it relates to the Bible. Please do not mention any illegal intoxicants in this thread as they might apply to yourself or even to others. It is against forum rules. In the past people have gotten my threads locked by continuing to bring up illegal intoxicant use. Please do not do that; in fact, do not even mention any legal intoxicants (like salvia, etc.) other then the drug alcohol.
Christ's First Miracle involved two of my favorite things (weddings and wine!). Recently, the following two points were made in an attempt to establish that the wine Christ made was in fact not wine but was non-alcoholic grape juice. I would like to continue that discussion if possible.
I had made the point that the host in the record of the miracle (in John 2) said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have become drunken; but you have saved the choice wine for now." The word he used to describe how people get from the choice wine is, methyō. That is the greek word that is translated into "drunken" in my above quote of John 2. It literally translates to "drunken". It does not merely mean "satisified" (as with water or grape juice). However, I also made the point that to be somewhat "drunken" though still sober (in other words, having not had enough to drink to fail a sobriety test) is not a sin. Ephesians 5:18 says not to be drunk "in excess", implying that the intoxication resulting from a glass or two of wine is not a sin, but rather the excessive drunkenness as described in various passages as leading to "stumbling as if on high seas" and "vomiting" is what is sinful.
The key to understanding the Bible is context and knowing something about the original language. This word "methyo" is only used in relation to wine and not to other beverages. It does not merely mean "satisfied" or "filled". There are other greek words that mean those things. This word means "drunk". (It is used in reference to blood sometimes, but only when speaking metaphorically about war... other then that it is only used in reference to wine).
If someone said they went to the bar, ordered wine, and drank until he considered himself sufficiently drunk... it would be foolish if you tried to argue that they were just drinking grape juice. Then again, if they said they went to a restaurant, ordered a beverage, and drank it until they were satisfied... then grape juice would be a real possibility.
What you are doing is entirely changing the context and even words to fit your own desired interpretation. The context is a wedding party, the drink is wine, and the word used to describe how people get is "drunk", a word that is only used in reference to wine (not "satisfied").
I did a search for the post you mentioned above. The first post that came up says the following, "One of the key arguments advanced by those who advocate a non-alcoholic wine is that Jesus turned the water into grape juice. This argument cannot be based on any grammatical or linguistic foundation, there is none."
I totally agree.
Job 31:1 says "I have made a covenant with my eyes, not to look at a girl" in some translations. But it would be foolish to think that means we must never look at any female (like muslims).
You have too look at context. The word he uses can also be translated "gaze", which implies lust. Then if you look at the context of the rest of the Bible, "lust" makes sense because we are commanded everywhere to never lust. We are never (anywhere else) told not to even look at a woman. In fact, there are lots of examples where godly men do look at and talk to women.
Yet if you took Job 31:1 and by that verse alone decided men should never look at women period, then you would be doing the same thing you're doing with Proverbs 23.
The actual word used in the passage is "gaze". It is a similar implication as the word "lust". The same passage also sets up the context of verse 30 by mentioning drinking "too much wine" (verse 20) and "lingering over the wine" (verse 30). The phrase "too much" in your Proverbs 23 passage implies that "some" of this wine you are saying we shouldn't even look at is okay, but "too much" is bad. God never says, "don't commit too much adultery" because even a little is already too much. Yet in Proverbs 23 we are told not to take "too much" of the wine, and are also told not to lust after it.
You're having to jump through a lot of hoops to stick to your guns on this one. It doesn't take much more then a simple desire to examine the context of God's Word and put aside traditions of men to understand that the Muslims are wrong for making women wear full face and body coverings, and Prohibitionists are wrong for thinking it is a sin to look at a glass of wine.
Ephesians 5:18 says (literally when you look at the greek) "do not be drunk in excess" with wine. It is not a sin to drink a glass or two of wine and become a little intoxicated (yet still be well sober according to our governments rules of it means to pass a sobriety test). It is a sin to be drunk "in excess", which means you are no longer sober.
Christ's First Miracle involved two of my favorite things (weddings and wine!). Recently, the following two points were made in an attempt to establish that the wine Christ made was in fact not wine but was non-alcoholic grape juice. I would like to continue that discussion if possible.
I had made the point that the host in the record of the miracle (in John 2) said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have become drunken; but you have saved the choice wine for now." The word he used to describe how people get from the choice wine is, methyō. That is the greek word that is translated into "drunken" in my above quote of John 2. It literally translates to "drunken". It does not merely mean "satisified" (as with water or grape juice). However, I also made the point that to be somewhat "drunken" though still sober (in other words, having not had enough to drink to fail a sobriety test) is not a sin. Ephesians 5:18 says not to be drunk "in excess", implying that the intoxication resulting from a glass or two of wine is not a sin, but rather the excessive drunkenness as described in various passages as leading to "stumbling as if on high seas" and "vomiting" is what is sinful.
The key to understanding the Bible is context and knowing something about the original language. This word "methyo" is only used in relation to wine and not to other beverages. It does not merely mean "satisfied" or "filled". There are other greek words that mean those things. This word means "drunk". (It is used in reference to blood sometimes, but only when speaking metaphorically about war... other then that it is only used in reference to wine).
If someone said they went to the bar, ordered wine, and drank until he considered himself sufficiently drunk... it would be foolish if you tried to argue that they were just drinking grape juice. Then again, if they said they went to a restaurant, ordered a beverage, and drank it until they were satisfied... then grape juice would be a real possibility.
What you are doing is entirely changing the context and even words to fit your own desired interpretation. The context is a wedding party, the drink is wine, and the word used to describe how people get is "drunk", a word that is only used in reference to wine (not "satisfied").
I did a search for the post you mentioned above. The first post that came up says the following, "One of the key arguments advanced by those who advocate a non-alcoholic wine is that Jesus turned the water into grape juice. This argument cannot be based on any grammatical or linguistic foundation, there is none."
I totally agree.
Job 31:1 says "I have made a covenant with my eyes, not to look at a girl" in some translations. But it would be foolish to think that means we must never look at any female (like muslims).
You have too look at context. The word he uses can also be translated "gaze", which implies lust. Then if you look at the context of the rest of the Bible, "lust" makes sense because we are commanded everywhere to never lust. We are never (anywhere else) told not to even look at a woman. In fact, there are lots of examples where godly men do look at and talk to women.
Yet if you took Job 31:1 and by that verse alone decided men should never look at women period, then you would be doing the same thing you're doing with Proverbs 23.
The actual word used in the passage is "gaze". It is a similar implication as the word "lust". The same passage also sets up the context of verse 30 by mentioning drinking "too much wine" (verse 20) and "lingering over the wine" (verse 30). The phrase "too much" in your Proverbs 23 passage implies that "some" of this wine you are saying we shouldn't even look at is okay, but "too much" is bad. God never says, "don't commit too much adultery" because even a little is already too much. Yet in Proverbs 23 we are told not to take "too much" of the wine, and are also told not to lust after it.
You're having to jump through a lot of hoops to stick to your guns on this one. It doesn't take much more then a simple desire to examine the context of God's Word and put aside traditions of men to understand that the Muslims are wrong for making women wear full face and body coverings, and Prohibitionists are wrong for thinking it is a sin to look at a glass of wine.
Ephesians 5:18 says (literally when you look at the greek) "do not be drunk in excess" with wine. It is not a sin to drink a glass or two of wine and become a little intoxicated (yet still be well sober according to our governments rules of it means to pass a sobriety test). It is a sin to be drunk "in excess", which means you are no longer sober.
