Spiritual Israel of God today is the Church, but national Israel also still has promises of God that will happen to them at time of the Second Coming of Christ!
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Church And Israel
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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The charge was actually given to the Apostles and they fulfilled it magnificently.
37818
Well-Known Member
Nonsense.
Dispies, still making a distinction, and that after being told multiple times from the scriptures that there is no distinction.
'Spiritual Israel and national Israel':
6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: Ro 9
I think Romans 9-11 settles this conclusively, especially Romans 11 deals with this issue directly. I have just a few questions for those who believe the church and Israel are one and the same today - or a spiritual Israel and that national Israel has been completely rejected by God AS A NATION.
1. Which "Israel" is it that Paul says "has not obtained what he seeketh for" "but is blinded unto this day" in Romans 11:7-8? (1) the Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) National ethnic Israel?
2. Which 'Israel" is it that David says "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?"
(1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) National ethnic Israel?
3. Which Israel has stumbled and fallen so that the gospel may come to the Gentiles in Romans 11:11-12? (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?
4. Which Israel does Paul says are "of my flesh" that only "some" of them might be saved by Paul's ministry - Rom.11:13? (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?
5. Which Israel has been cast away and cut off by God "because of unbelief" who are called "the natural banches" which God "did not spare: in Romans 11:14-20?
(1) The Remnant; (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?
If you are honest with these texts and context the only possible answer for all five questions is #3 Ethnic National Israel!
Now here is your problem! The Israel that is cut off is the Israel that God "will graft them back in again" (v. 27). The Israel that has "stumbled" and "fallen" is the same Israel that God has ordained they will not remain stumbled and fallen but will be restored.
Saved Gentiles are NEVER called "Jacob" as "Jacob" is reserved in Scripture to refer to ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL in its FALLEN condition. The Israel God has rejected that salvation might come to the Gentiles will be saved by God when the "fulleness of the Gentiles come in" or the full elect God is calling out from among them:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The Israel he is speaking about above is the Israel that "concerning the gospel...are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE"
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
But with regard to God's elective purposes they are the ELECT NATION which God will save after all the Gentile elect have been saved when Christ returns and it at that moment when they see him coming they will be saved - Rev. 1:7
Why can't Christians clearly see this? (1) Because they think salvation promises given to the Jews but are NOW being administered to the Gentiles means they are no longer applicable by God to the Jews - FALSE! (2) Because Gentiles are now partakers of the same gospel benefits and promises they have become "ignorant of this mystery....and wise in your own conceits"
Neither Remnant elect Israel, nor Spiritual Israel have "stumbled" and have "fallen" or have been rejected by God, cut off, and only "some" saved but this is ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL and it is those who have been cut off that will be grafted in again, those who have stumbled have not permently fallen - "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:"
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Hence, the present day application of Jewish termonolgy to Gentile saints is only for the purpose to demonstrate the same salvation promises to elect Israel are applicable to Gentiles BUT NOTHING MORE THAN THIS.
That verse seems to identify a distinction to me.
Yea, but it's not a good distinction:
6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9
The 'distinction' was identified here:
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10
The 'becoming one flock' began here:
Acts Of The Apostles 10
God has not forever forgotten Ethnic Jews, as those alive at time of Second Coming shall all be saved, and see Jesus as Messiah/King!
God did not forever disown in AD 70 them!
Traditional Dispensationalism is bogus doctrine, based on faulty interpretation. They take "and" to mean "also" rather than "even or that is" in Galatians 6:16. But Galatians 3 rules out that distinction. Born anew believers are "all Israel" as are OT saints made perfect through the blood of Christ.
Galatians 3:27-29 NASB
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Progressive Dispensationalism is the correct view.
Galatians 3:27-29 NASB
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Progressive Dispensationalism is the correct view.
Yeshua1, are you Jewish?
Yes, "All Israel" and the "Bride of Christ" are one, made up of born anew believers. Both groups are made up of believers, rather than folks of a particular blood line. That is why Jews must be born anew, their blood line does not factor into their salvation.
No, I do not see in scripture that the NT "church" replaced the recipient of the promise given through the Old Testament. The "church" simply also receives that promise. Again, Galatians 3 makes this unification crystal clear, IMHO. I take the 1000 year reign of Christ on David's throne literally.
Nope
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The church is Israel for many reasons. One, Paul says Jesus and those who believe in him are Abraham's seed. Not the physical unbelieving Jews. And in the OT, the Hebrews were Abraham's seed and Moses used the terms Israel and Hebrews interchangeably. Thus Abraham's seed = Hebrews and Israel.
Another reason the church is Israel is because Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. Circumcision made one, even blood relatives, the physical seed of Abraham, or a Jew, or an Israelite after the flesh. Without circumcision, all are gentiles except those who believe in Christ according to Paul. Those who reject him are Antichrists according to John.
In Romans 11, the broken off unbelievers will be reattached through faith. If they are Israel, to whom are they reattached if they become believers? More if interested.
Another reason the church is Israel is because Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. Circumcision made one, even blood relatives, the physical seed of Abraham, or a Jew, or an Israelite after the flesh. Without circumcision, all are gentiles except those who believe in Christ according to Paul. Those who reject him are Antichrists according to John.
In Romans 11, the broken off unbelievers will be reattached through faith. If they are Israel, to whom are they reattached if they become believers? More if interested.
If you will eat a ham sandwich you are a dispensationalist.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I certainly can't deny that oneIf you will eat a ham sandwich you are a dispensationalist.
. We are definitely in a "dispensation" of grace.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
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