Church as a business?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Great job of explaining things.

I might add that so many young people respect older people for their wisdom and stability in life. A lot of that is due to the fact that their parents were not home. The problem is that nobody wants to listen a grump who talks about the old days and about himself. Young people cannot talk about the days past what they remember. Most of them are looking forward to life ahead and they also struggle with that too.

Recently I was an interim pastor at a dying church in a city where the average age is 29. I quickly realized that the church had some of the most selfish people I had ever met. The people who reaching the most young people were older than 45. The music was led by a man who was 27 and he did a great job. I was the oldest person (58) in the church. I realized that a number of the younger people had been to a particular Bible school and a number of them thought they knew more than they really did. Some of the young people were not there to learn but to demonstrate how much they knew and hold to "sound doctrine." I finally told them that as long as there was a divided leadership and they continued to be selfish that I could not help them. The youngest person in leadership was focused on finances and the oldest were reaching people.

I think the one quality a church must have is love. Love must be demonstrated by an absence of self and putting others first. Young people can learn to be selfish or selfless by our example. I have never seen a dead or dying church that was always selfless unless the town died.

The percentage of people who come to Christ under 18 is huge and the percentage over 50 is close to zero. When I was in AZ I saw older people who came for the sole purpose of reaching people their age and they did. For us to reach people we must go where they are.

The an who got me started in business had young people around him all the time. When he died there were more people at his funeral that attendance in that church. In fact there was not enough room in the gymnasium and sanctuary. So they had to set up a system outside for people to see and hear. The service lasted 3 hours. People from all ages were there.

I firmly believe that people expect others to act their age, but they do not care to be around selfish people. Recently I met with a young pastor each week to help him learn how to make disciples. He is now involved in planting a church in another city. Many of our discussions were about the things he struggled with in pastoring. Over and over I tried to keep him focused on what God wanted from him and how he would reach those that others were not reaching. I told him about some of the struggles I had when I was his age and how God blessed in some incredible ways that I least expected.

Id love you to come up to New Jersey and try to work your magic Church here....there is a whole other dynamic & within 6 months you will be running for the hills. LOL!

 

[gb93433]

Id love you to come up to New Jersey and try to work your magic Church here....there is a whole other dynamic & within 6 months you will be running for the hills. LOL!

It is not magical, just hard work. I call it "get busy." When laziness abounds death is prevalent.

It never ceases to amaze me how many "leaders" come out of the woodwork with their ideas and who the problem is in the church. Yet they have failed to reach anyone.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is not magical, just hard work. I call it "get busy." When laziness abounds death is prevalent.

It never ceases to amaze me how many "leaders" come out of the woodwork with their ideas and who the problem is in the church. Yet they have failed to reach anyone.

The main problem is that they are Gathering Centers (clubs) & not Spiritual Centers or they are Mom & Pop & Extended Family groups and they dont know what they are doing. Mixed into that are the apostate Methodist, General Baptist & Presbyterian churches that have no spiritual legs. I really wonder if there is any Strong & Productive churches in the whole of North Jersey.

 

[gb93433]

The main problem is that they are Gathering Centers (clubs) & not Spiritual Centers or they are Mom & Pop & Extended Family groups and they dont know what they are doing. Mixed into that are the apostate Methodist, General Baptist & Presbyterian churches that have no spiritual legs.

That is common around America just under different disguises. Some names are different but in the end the results are typically the same.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is common around America just under different disguises. Some names are different but in the end the results are typically the same.

so the 10 million dollar question brother is, what does a Christian do about church when faced with this situation?

 

[gb93433]

so the 10 million dollar question brother is, what does a Christian do about church when faced with this situation?

I would think that it could not be much more difficult than what Jesus was faced with in the face of the Jewish religious leaders and in that culture. He commanded in Mt. 28:19, 20 to make disciples. As far as I can tell he never set any conditions. We can look at those who are not or we can look at those who are. The harvest is plentiful . . . .

There is a good message at http://www.discipleshiplibrary.com/dawson_trotman.php and click on Born To Reproduce.

 

[glfredrick]

EW&F, why would one expect "dead people" to respond unless God animate them?

Dead is dead, they all respond the same. There is no more difficult mission field in one place than another.

I suggest a serious effort in prayer with an understanding that God may ask you to be a part of the solution. One cannot pray and ask someone else to do the work... Doesn't work that way.

Jesus told us that the fields are white unto harvest. He knows what He is talking about. He told us to pray for workers for that harvest. The harvest is there, but there is no one out harvesting!

Instead, we are targeting "geographical areas" as if cities, states, and counties get saved. In fact, our target ought to be people -- especially people who are God's elect, prepared ahead of time and awaiting someone to share the gospel to begin the process.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EW&F, why would one expect "dead people" to respond unless God animate them?

Dead is dead, they all respond the same. There is no more difficult mission field in one place than another.

I suggest a serious effort in prayer with an understanding that God may ask you to be a part of the solution. One cannot pray and ask someone else to do the work... Doesn't work that way.

Jesus told us that the fields are white unto harvest. He knows what He is talking about. He told us to pray for workers for that harvest. The harvest is there, but there is no one out harvesting!

Instead, we are targeting "geographical areas" as if cities, states, and counties get saved. In fact, our target ought to be people -- especially people who are God's elect, prepared ahead of time and awaiting someone to share the gospel to begin the process.

God better start animating people in North Jersey soon (Get Busy Lord) or else I am moving to Florida!

 

[glfredrick]

God better start animating people in North Jersey soon (Get Busy Lord) or else I am moving to Florida!

That happens when someone DOES what God ordained in the Scriptures, i.e., preach the gospel, baptize, make disciples, teach, then continue.

That is what the people of the Jersey area should know from the history of great revivals in THAT land, but what they have forgotten in their quest to be a secular people.

Brother, not to pick on you, but YOU need to be the one to start the new movement. No one else will. But you are not even currently involved with a congregation because you cannot find one suitable "enough" to meet YOUR standards. I'd suggest getting involved, then start to preach the gospel. You know it, believe it, and have the power and authority of God behind it.

 

[mandym]

Something I've struggled with the past few years is how today's church is run. I'm not talking about congregational vs. elder rule, purpose driven, seeker, etc. I'm talking about the giving of tithes and offerings and how they are used. Every time I see a breakdown of how giving is used, it both sickens and saddens me. I'll give you a random number of what I'm talking about. Say in a 6 month period a church receives 200k in tithes and offering. Say it is broken down to 120k in personnel and 70k in facilities leaving 10k for everything else including supporting missions, discipleship (which I do understand the salaried pastor is a big part of), bereavement, etc.

Is this the way the church was intended to be and what is one supposed to do if they do not agree with this model and there are no other churches around? I do not believe at this point in time God has called me to plant a church or be a pastor, so that option is out. As someone who is struggling financially (along with many Americans) I'm having a hard time setting aside a portion to "give back to God" that will end up being primarily used to support a salary or building. I realize this could just be me, and the purpose of this thread is to work through this.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean you should go somewhere else. That attitude is as wrong as anything you have named thus far.

 

[gb93433]

God better start animating people in North Jersey soon (Get Busy Lord) or else I am moving to Florida!

Reminds me of the time I complained to the leader of a group I was in. He told me that he wanted me to lead in ministry in a particular dorm. I complained to him and said that nobody came to Christ in that dorm and that nothing ever happened. After I walked away and thought about what I said I felt embarrassed. I prayed and asked God for men I would reach. After two years that same dorm became the dorm with the greatest number of Christians in it. one out of 4 became Christians during that time.

A friend of mine told the story of a time when he worked on an oil rig in the ocean and he complained to God about the lack of fellowship. He started praying and God prompted him to start a Bible study. He was on the rig for two weeks at a time. God gave him fellowship all around him.

We need to be talking to God about men before we talk to men about God.

The question I need to ask myself when I complain is "How big is my God?" When my God is big the world is small. When my God is small the world is big.

 

[Bob Alkire]

We need to be talking to God about men before we talk to men about God.

So true!!! There has been many times I've tried to do it backward, shame on me.