Church as a Rock Concert

[JonC]

Your understanding of the biblical usage of "edify" is not accurate. The Greek verb used for "edify" in the NT does not mean "to instruct." The Greek NT has verbs that do mean "to instruct," but oikodomew is not one of them.

From BibleWorks10:

Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon

[Fri] οἰκοδομέω impf. ᾠκοδόμουν; fut. οἰκοδομήσω; 1aor. ᾠκοδόμησα; 1aor. pass. ᾠκοδομήθην or οἰκοδομήθην (JN 2.20); 1fut. pass. οἰκοδομηθήσομαι; (1) literally; (a) as constructing houses, temples, tombs, etc. build, erect (LU 6.48); (b) absolutely erect buildings (LU 17.28); substantivally οἱ οἰκοδομοῦντες the builders (MT 21.42); (c) build again, restore (MT 26.61), opposite καταλύω (destroy, tear down); (2) figuratively; (a) of the establishment and increase of a Christian community known as the house of God build, establish (1P 2.5); (b) of the process of spiritual growth and development of the spiritual community and each member within it edify, make more able, strengthen (1C 14.4); (c) in a negative sense, as setting up (again) a wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles build (again), restore (GA 2.18); (d) as imparting strength and courage to someone to do what is right (1TH 5.11) or wrong (1C 8.10) strengthen, embolden
__________________________________
Gingrich, Greek NT Lexicon (GIN)

[GING] οἰκοδομέω
οἰκοδομέω build—1. lit. build, erect Mt 7:24, 26; 23:29; Mk 12:1; Lk 6:48; 12:18; 1 Pt 2:7. Build up again, restore Mt 27:40; Mk 15:29.—2. fig. Mt 16:18; Ro 15; 20; Gal 2:18; 1 Pt 2:5.—3. also in a nonliteral sense, with little consciousness of the central meaning build up, edify, benefit, strengthen Ac 9:31; 20:32; 1 Cor 8:1, 10; 10:23; 14:4, 17; 1 Th 5:11. [pg 137]
__________________________________
Danker, Greek NT Lexicon (DAN)

[DANK] οἰκοδομέω
οἰκοδομέω [οἰκοδόμος; ‘build’] – 1. ‘erect a structure’ – a. build, of var. types of structures Mt 7:24, 26; 23:29; Mk 12:1; Lk 6:48; 12:18; 1 Pt 2:7. – By ext., of transcendent entities, such as Christ’s ἐκκλησία Mt 16:18; sim. 1 Pt 2:5. – b. with focus on restoration of structures build up Mt 27:40; Mk 15:29. – 2. in imagery of building viewed as process or result, w. focus on growth and development build up Ac 9:31; 20:32; 1 Cor 8:1, 10 (in irony); 10:23; 14:4, 17; 1 Th 5:11.

[Louw-Nida] Lexicon
74.15 οἰκοδομέω ; ἐποικοδομέω ; οἰκοδομή, ῆς f: to increase the potential of someone or something, with focus upon the process involved - 'to strengthen, to make more able, to build up.' οἰκοδομέω: οἰκοδομουμένη καὶ πορευομένη τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου 'built up and living in reverence for the Lord' Ac 9.31 . ἐποικοδομέω: ἐποικοδομοῦντες ἑαυτοὺς τῇ ἁγιωτάτῃ ὑμῶν πίστει 'build yourselves up on your most holy faith' or '... by means of your most holy faith' Jd 20. οἰκοδομή: κατὰ τὴν ἐξουσίαν ἣν ὁ κύριος ἔδωκέν μοι, εἰς οἰκοδομὴν καὶ οὐκ εἰς καθαίρεσιν 'according to the authority which the Lord has given me to build you up, not to tear you down' or '... to strengthen and not to weaken' 2 Cor 13.10. 74.15 οἰκοδομέω ; ἐποικοδομέω ; οἰκοδομή, ῆς f: to increase the potential of someone or something, with focus upon the process involved - 'to strengthen, to make more able, to build up.' οἰκοδομέω: οἰκοδομουμένη καὶ πορευομένη τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου 'built up and living in reverence for the Lord' Ac 9.31 . ἐποικοδομέω: ἐποικοδομοῦντες ἑαυτοὺς τῇ ἁγιωτάτῃ ὑμῶν πίστει 'build yourselves up on your most holy faith' or '... by means of your most holy faith' Jd 20. οἰκοδομή: κατὰ τὴν ἐξουσίαν ἣν ὁ κύριος ἔδωκέν μοι, εἰς οἰκοδομὴν καὶ οὐκ εἰς καθαίρεσιν 'according to the authority which the Lord has given me to build you up, not to tear you down' or '... to strengthen and not to weaken' 2 Cor 13.10.

None of these major Greek lexicons speak of oikodomew as meaning "to instruct."

I think you meant to quote another person.

I am not the one who discussed the "Biblical meaning" of "edify".

The Biblical meaning of "edify" is to provide instruction and teaching (see 1 Corinthians 14:3).

Scripture tells is that the purpose of prophesy, for example is to edify, to exhort, and to comfort.


I apologize in advance for not bothering to read your lexicon references (I took graduate level Greek).

But reading your own words what you are missing is the "how". What does "edify" mean in terms of "strengthening"?

Does it mean "encouraging"? No. That is different per Scripture. Does it mean "comfort"? Again, no. But both of those strengthen.

It means strengthening through instruction and teaching (hence its link to prophsey).

It is instructing and teaching with a specific purpose (to strengthen the Christian faith).


I ask again, how do the words of the hymn "Holy Holy Holy" edify you (not encourage, not uplift, not confort.....but teach you things you did not know in order to strengthen you)?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I think you meant to quote another person.

I am not the one who discussed the "Biblical meaning" of "edify".

The Biblical meaning of "edify" is to provide instruction and teaching (see 1 Corinthians 14:3).

Scripture tells is that the purpose of prophesy, for example is to edify, to exhort, and to comfort.


I apologize in advance for not bothering to read your lexicon references (I took graduate level Greek).

But reading your own words what you are missing is the "how". What does "edify" mean in terms of "strengthening"?

Does it mean "encouraging"? No. That is different per Scripture. Does it mean "comfort"? Again, no. But both of those strengthen.

It means strengthening through instruction and teaching (hence its link to prophsey).

It is instructing and teaching with a specific purpose (to strengthen the Christian faith).


I ask again, how do the words of the hymn "Holy Holy Holy" edify you (not encourage, not uplift, not confort.....but teach you things you did not know in order to strengthen you)?

No, it is not true that "the Biblical meaning of 'edify' is to provide instruction and teaching." You are taking a wrong position that multiple Greek lexicons do not take.

Scripture itself shows that your view is wrong.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

BGT 1 Corinthians 8:1 Περὶ δὲ τῶν εἰδωλοθύτων, οἴδαμεν ὅτι πάντες γνῶσιν ἔχομεν. ἡ γνῶσις φυσιοῖ, ἡ δὲ ἀγάπη οἰκοδομεῖ·

Paul explicitly says that knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. According to your thinking, Paul said that knowledge puffs up, but charity instructs and teaches. The wrongness of that interpretation of that passage is self-evident.

In addition, your views do not fully reflect what Scripture teaches are the purposes of the use of music in corporate worship. You apparently think that singing "Holy, Holy, Holy" in corporate worship is only about you relating to God. That simply is not true.

In corporate worship, God says that everything must be done to edifying, including ministering psalms:

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Singing "Holy, Holy, Holy" or any other song in corporate worship is intended by God not just as worship to Him but also as edifying speech that teaches and admonishes others:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

It simply is not true that singing in corporate worship is only for the benefit of the person himself who is singing.

 

[JonC]

No, it is not true that "the Biblical meaning of 'edify' is to provide instruction and teaching." You are taking a wrong position that multiple Greek lexicons do not take.

Interesting claim. But incorrect.

I just checked and several (all I looked at) actually state that the word also refers to strengthening or building (like constructing a building).

Guess we have different lexicons

 

[Cathode]

Not according to Scripture "come to worship Him with thankful hearts and songs of praise" comes to mind).

We do worship with songs of praise, in relation to the Worship of the Eucharistic Liturgy.
Worship however is about the Altar and the Sacrifice.

Have you read Flannery O'Connor? If not I recommend the writer. She was from Georgia and addresses a lot of social issues of her day. But she also addresses piety in several forms.

A Good Man is Hard to Find is probably her most popular.

But my favorite is a collection of short stories, Everything That Rises Must Converge.

I think you'd like her writings. She was distinctly Catholic

Some stories, not the novels.

I think when the N word comes back into more fashionable everyday use, she’ll be far more acclaimed.
Today the word shaves more bacon from the hide than it brings home.

There is no more enslaved, chained and beaten a word, shoved in a dark hole to be forgotten about and neglected to be even spoken of, especially around good, white, Christian landholders.

 

[JonC]

We do worship with songs of praise, in relation to the Worship of the Eucharistic Liturgy.
Worship however is about the Altar and the Sacrifice.



Some stories, not the novels.

I think when the N word comes back into more fashionable everyday use, she’ll be far more acclaimed.
Today the word shaves more bacon from the hide than it brings home.

There is no more enslaved, chained and beaten a word, shoved in a dark hole to be forgotten about and neglected to be even spoken of, especially around good, white, Christian landholders.

The Early Church did not utilize the Altar and Sacrifice (many of these....all, in fact....had very humble beginnings in what we would call "house churches" or "community gatherings".

But they worshipped God.

 

[David Lamb]

Do you have any actual Bible to back up your view that music is only for the worship of God and not edification? Where does the Bible teach that worship and edification are mutually exclusive?

No I don't have any bible reference. However, certainly the bible does teach that worship is to be addressed to God alone. I think of John on the Isle of Patmos trying to worship the angel you spoke to him. The angel said:

“See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."” (Re 19:10 NKJV)

 

[Cathode]

The Early Church did not utilize the Altar and Sacrifice (many of these....all, in fact....had very humble beginnings in what we would call "house churches" or "community gatherings".

But they worshipped God.

“ The altar was of wood, three cubits high, and its length two cubits; and its corners, and its length, and its walls were of wood. And he said unto me, This is the table which is before The Lord.” Eze 41:22

“By offering defiled bread on my altar.

“But you ask, ‘How have we defiled you?’

“By saying that the Lord’s table is contemptible.” Mal 1:7

The “Altar” and the table of the Lord are the same thing.

“14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?”

Paul links the participation of the body and blood of Christ to those who eat of Israel’s Altar sacrifices.

“Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?”

So the table of the Lord is an Altar, and what takes place there is sacrificial.

Paul further highlights this.

“No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. “

Catholics fulfilled Malachi’s prophecy of God, that the Gentiles would bring incense and pure sacrifices to Him.

10 “Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the Lord Almighty, “and I will accept no offering from your hands. 11 My name will be great among the Gentiles from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure oblations will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the Gentiles,” says the Lord Almighty.”

 

[JonC]

“ The altar was of wood, three cubits high, and its length two cubits; and its corners, and its length, and its walls were of wood. And he said unto me, This is the table which is before The Lord.” Eze 41:22

“By offering defiled bread on my altar.

“But you ask, ‘How have we defiled you?’

“By saying that the Lord’s table is contemptible.” Mal 1:7

The “Altar” and the table of the Lord are the same thing.

“14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?”

Paul links the participation of the body and blood of Christ to those who eat of Israel’s Altar sacrifices.

“Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?”

So the table of the Lord is an Altar, and what takes place there is sacrificial.

Paul further highlights this.

“No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. “

Catholics fulfilled Malachi’s prophecy of God, that the Gentiles would bring incense and pure sacrifices to Him.

10 “Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the Lord Almighty, “and I will accept no offering from your hands. 11 My name will be great among the Gentiles from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure oblations will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the Gentiles,” says the Lord Almighty.”

The early church held did not have an altar.

But yes, as you point out, the Tabernacle, Temple, and pagan temples did have altars.

I am not talking about church buildings that were, centuries later, constructed. I'm talking about the earlier church.

I apologize for your confusion as my wording probably contributed. I should have said churches during the 1st century of Christianity. This would be the Apostalic to the early Early Church period. Sorry for my lack of clarity.

 

[Cathode]

The early church held did not have an altar.

But yes, as you point out, the Tabernacle, Temple, and pagan temples did have altars.

I am not talking about church buildings that were, centuries later, constructed. I'm talking about the earlier church.

I apologize for your confusion as my wording probably contributed. I should have said churches during the 1st century of Christianity. This would be the Apostalic to the early Early Church period. Sorry for my lack of clarity.

It wasn’t centuries later. Ignatius of Antioch was first century, and knew John.

“Ignatius of Antioch used the Greek word for “altar,” thusiasterion, referring to the celebration of the Eucharist by the bishop and the place where the holy sacrifice is offered.“

“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one Altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3-4:1 [A.D. 110]).

“Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice-even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God” (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

Not only is he referring to the Altar, but also the Altar of Sacrifice in relation to the Eucharist.

And also held that these sacrificial elements were Jesus flesh and blood.

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible.” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox [heretical] opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius was already in old age in 110 Ad. A first century Apostolic Father.

“Altar of Sacrifice “

“ The Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins”

So from Paul to Ignatius we see the same sacrificial understanding of the Lord’s table.

 

[JonC]

It wasn’t centuries later. Ignatius of Antioch was first century, and knew John.

“Ignatius of Antioch used the Greek word for “altar,” thusiasterion, referring to the celebration of the Eucharist by the bishop and the place where the holy sacrifice is offered.“

“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one Altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3-4:1 [A.D. 110]).

“Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice-even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God” (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

Not only is he referring to the Altar, but also the Altar of Sacrifice in relation to the Eucharist.

And also held that these sacrificial elements were Jesus flesh and blood.

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible.” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox [heretical] opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius was already in old age in 110 Ad. A first century Apostolic Father.

“Altar of Sacrifice “

“ The Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins”

So from Paul to Ignatius we see the same sacrificial understanding of the Lord’s table.

You are not referencing Scripture but a letter attributed to Ignatius of Antioch.

While his writings are considered to be among the Apostalic period writings it is not certain when he actually lived and died (earliest is around 110 AD, latest 140 AD). He identifies himself as one generation after the Apostalic period as a disciple of John.

But much of this history is derived from Catholic sources (we do not know what is legitimately his words).

This would not be the Apostalic Church period or what I was referring to as the early Early Church period.



My point was not that churches didn't institute altars but that the earlier church did not have altars yet still worshipped God.

You seem to insist that those first Gentile Christians in Acts (who were not associated with any of the Apostles, but apparently heard the gospel) did not actually worship God.

Also, the Church in Cornith did not have an altar, nor did they observe Communion in the form that the Catholics observe communion (as a sacrament). We know this from how their worship is described in Paul's epistles (he actually criticized how they observed the ordinance). BUT Paul never said that they were not worshipping God.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The playing of music in corporate worship at volume levels known to damage human hearing is to work ill to the people who are present in those services. Knowingly causing physical harm to people is unloving and therefore unrighteous conduct that violates what God explicitly teaches us in Scripture in Romans 13:10.

It does not matter what your preference is concerning the volume levels of worship music. If the volume level is at or above a level known to damage hearing, you are obligated to deny yourself your preference and love others more than yourself.

Turn the volume down in your worship services so that you are not damaging anyone's hearing!

 

[Cathode]

You are not referencing Scripture but a letter attributed to Ignatius of Antioch.

I was referring to Paul’s writings in Corinthians which indicate the Lord’s Table is an Altar of Sacrifice

“14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?”

We already showed in Malachi and Ezekiel the Lord’s Table is an Altar of Sacrifice.

Paul associates the Lord’s Table with the Israelite Altar of Sacrifice and opposes the Lord’s Table of Sacrifice from the pagan table of demons, which is the altars of pagan sacrifice.

While his writings are considered to be among the Apostalic period writings it is not certain when he actually lived and died (earliest is around 110 AD, latest 140 AD). He identifies himself as one generation after the Apostalic period as a disciple of John.

But much of this history is derived from Catholic sources (we do not know what is legitimately his words).

This would not be the Apostalic Church period or what I was referring to as the early Early Church period.

The fact is Ignatius was disciple of John, which puts him squarely in the first century faith and practice.

Thankfully we also we have the Didache which also is a first century reference that regards the Eucharist as sacrificial and even refers to Malachi.

“On the Lord’s day, when you have been gathered together, break bread and celebrate the Eucharist. But first confess your sins so that your offering may be pure. If anyone has a quarrel with his neighbor, that person should not join you until he has been reconciled. Your sacrifice must not be defiled. In this regard, the Lord has said: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice. I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is great among the Gentiles. [Malachi 1:11]” Didache

So here we have a clear understanding that the Eucharist is sacrificial as with Corinthians and Malachi which both tie the Lord’s Table as the Altar of Sacrifice.

It also shows that they understood that their Eucharistic sacrifice fulfilled the prophecy of God in Malachi.

My point was not that churches didn't institute altars but that the earlier church did not have altars yet still worshipped God.

You seem to insist that those first Gentile Christians in Acts (who were not associated with any of the Apostles, but apparently heard the gospel) did not actually worship God.

Also, the Church in Cornith did not have an altar, nor did they observe Communion in the form that the Catholics observe communion (as a sacrament). We know this from how their worship is described in Paul's epistles (he actually criticized how they observed the ordinance). BUT Paul never said that they were not worshipping God.

It shows that The Lord’s Table is the Altar of Sacrifice, used interchangeably in Ezekiel, Malachi and Corinthians.

So even if it was an ordinary table as in the last supper, when it was used for the Celebration of the Eucharist, it was regarded as an Altar of Sacrifice.

Catholics today use ordinary tables in our homes as Altars when a priest celebrates The Holy Eucharist on it. After which, it is no longer considered just an ordinary table, but an Altar of Sacrifice.

 

[Cathode]

The other interesting thing is that the Didache applies the same requirement that Jesus made of approaching the Jewish Altar of Sacrifice, to approach the Eucharistic sacrifice.

“If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” Matt 5:23

“On the Lord’s day, when you have been gathered together, break bread and celebrate the Eucharist. But first confess your sins so that your offering may be pure. If anyone has a quarrel with his neighbor, that person should not join you until he has been reconciled. Your sacrifice must not be defiled. In this regard, the Lord has said: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice. I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is great among the nations. [Malachi 1:11]
Didache

This further solidifies the understanding that the Eucharist is a sacrifice, because it cannot be participated in if you harbour hatred against anyone.

 

[JonC]

I was referring to Paul’s writings in Corinthians which indicate the Lord’s Table is an Altar of Sacrifice

“14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?”

We already showed in Malachi and Ezekiel the Lord’s Table is an Altar of Sacrifice.

Paul associates the Lord’s Table with the Israelite Altar of Sacrifice and opposes the Lord’s Table of Sacrifice from the pagan table of demons, which is the altars of pagan sacrifice.



The fact is Ignatius was disciple of John, which puts him squarely in the first century faith and practice.

Thankfully we also we have the Didache which also is a first century reference that regards the Eucharist as sacrificial and even refers to Malachi.

“On the Lord’s day, when you have been gathered together, break bread and celebrate the Eucharist. But first confess your sins so that your offering may be pure. If anyone has a quarrel with his neighbor, that person should not join you until he has been reconciled. Your sacrifice must not be defiled. In this regard, the Lord has said: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice. I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is great among the Gentiles. [Malachi 1:11]” Didache

So here we have a clear understanding that the Eucharist is sacrificial as with Corinthians and Malachi which both tie the Lord’s Table as the Altar of Sacrifice.

It also shows that they understood that their Eucharistic sacrifice fulfilled the prophecy of God in Malachi.



It shows that The Lord’s Table is the Altar of Sacrifice, used interchangeably in Ezekiel, Malachi and Corinthians.

So even if it was an ordinary table as in the last supper, when it was used for the Celebration of the Eucharist, it was regarded as an Altar of Sacrifice.

Catholics today use ordinary tables in our homes as Altars when a priest celebrates The Holy Eucharist on it. After which, it is no longer considered just an ordinary table, but an Altar of Sacrifice.

But we know that the churches at John's tike did not have physical altars.

We also know that priests did not exist within early Christianity.

And we know that there was no Eucharist as Catholics use the word in that period.


I am not, btw, debating these facts with you. I have already explained that I do not believe debating non-Christian doctrine (whether Catholic specific, or Mormon) is a worthy endeavor.

I have several Mormon and Catholic friends. I love them. But I do not debate them as I would others. I have found they are indoctrinated into their mythologies through authorities other than Scripture (both believe Scripture only insofar as their "church" allows).


You may, however, want to examine the actual use of "Altar".

 

[JonC]

The other interesting thing is that the Didache applies the same requirement that Jesus made of approaching the Jewish Altar of Sacrifice, to approach the Eucharistic sacrifice.

“If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” Matt 5:23

“On the Lord’s day, when you have been gathered together, break bread and celebrate the Eucharist. But first confess your sins so that your offering may be pure. If anyone has a quarrel with his neighbor, that person should not join you until he has been reconciled. Your sacrifice must not be defiled. In this regard, the Lord has said: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice. I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is great among the nations. [Malachi 1:11]
Didache

This further solidifies the understanding that the Eucharist is a sacrifice, because it cannot be participated in if you harbour hatred against anyone.

If you study Scripture (apart from Catholic dogma) you may find a much greater significance to the Altar than your faith has thus far allowed.

 

[Cathode]

But we know that the churches at John's tike did not have physical altars.

We also know that priests did not exist within early Christianity.

I am not, btw, debating these facts with you. I have already explained that I do not believe debating non-Christian doctrine (whether Catholic specific, or Mormon) is a worthy endeavor.

Like I said, the Lord's Table is the Altar, and was understood to be an Altar of Sacrifice. This is entirely Scriptural.

Justin Martyr makes the same case as the Didache.

“Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, says the Lord: but you profane it.' Malachi 1:10-12 [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane [it]. “ Justin Martyr 155 AD Trypho.

So in summary, I have presented Paul’s writings in Corinthians, Ezekiel, Malachi, The Didache, Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr.
These all tie together perfectly to the Catholic Understanding.

I am presenting all the evidence from Scripture and the Church Fathers, and you say I’m indoctrinated.

While failure to be convinced of a lie is praised in scripture, failure to be persuaded and convinced by the truth is always condemned in Scripture.

And we know that there was no Eucharist as Catholics use the word in that period.

No, you assert that there was no Eucharist as Catholics use the word in that period and ignore all evidence to the contrary, whilst presenting no evidence of your own.

 

[Cathode]

If you study Scripture (apart from Catholic dogma) you may find a much greater significance to the Altar than your faith has thus far allowed.

I’ve laid out a beautiful table of evidence from Scripture for you Jon, with Patristic sides, and warm contemporaneous gravy from the Didache.

 

[JonC]

Like I said, the Lord's Table is the Altar, and was understood to be an Altar of Sacrifice. This is entirely Scriptural.

No, it is not Biblical.

Decades ago the Roman Catholic Church was more honest. I still remember their teachings that the Catholic sacraments, particularly their understanding if the Eucharist, originated with Roman paganism but that God had "purified" that paganism to represent a sacred worship.

Today this has shifted to simply rewriting history. I admit, it is easier and more effective. We see this in many Baptist churches as well (with different issues).

Like I said, I present history but do not debate Catholics or Mormons.

The reason is we have different authorities for our faith and cannot legitimately enter into a debate because we can't agree on the presuppositions.

 

[JonC]

I’ve laid out a beautiful table of evidence from Scripture for you Jon, with Patristic sides, and warm contemporaneous gravy from the Didache.

You have laid out your arguments, and I agree you have done well. But those are only evidences internal to Catholic mythology (just as Ellen Whites interpretations are evidences only within SDA mythology).

 

[Cathode]

You have laid out your arguments, and I agree you have done well. But those are only evidences internal to Catholic mythology (just as Ellen Whites interpretations are evidences only within SDA mythology).

It’s not mythology if there is clear Scriptural, historical and Patristic evidence presented.

There is nothing pagan Roman in Catholic Worship as you asserted, it has very consistent Jewish, Scriptural, Apostolic and Patristic roots.

You may want to examine whether you are indoctrinated in certain mythologies of your own.