Church Growth Movement

[Ed B]

Ed, the one I've visited would be more like one in the setting of "Little House on the Pararie" than a "modern culture" church.

We have several Cowboy Churches in my area too. I haven't attended one but based on 2nd-hand information I have no reason to believe that they are any less Christ-centered than "First Church" or any of the other historic Baptist Churches in our area. It would seem they are a "culture church" based on attire, music and facility decor, but certainly not a modern culture church.

 

[glfredrick]

"The Devil seeks to destroy the church indirectly. Men's views eliminate all the unpopular principles of the Cross - self-denial, life surrender, and separation from the world. When this is done, the Devil runs the church. Then the church becomes popular, self-satisfying, modern, and progressive. But it is the Devil's church, founded on principles pleasing in every way to flesh and blood."

Guide To Spiritual Warfare by E.M. Bounds

I am wondering what you think about how the above quote caompares with what is being taught among those in the church growth movement.

Are you talking about the church growth movement that died out in the 1990s? :laugh:

I've seen a lot of people pick on the CGM. That is in large part because they don't understand it very well. They see folks like Joel Olsteen, who is anything BUT a church (save for his calling it that) and they equate that with the CGM.

First, the CGM is about CHURCH. Local church. Congregation of regenerate believers. An extension of the kingdom of God.

What is wrong with growing THAT?

Second, the CGM examined what it means to be "contextual" and "missional" with the un-changing Word of God. The keygma of the Gospel is not ours to tamper with, but building settings, music styles, manner of dress (as long as it is within scriptural bounds and not overtly sensual), times, order of service, lighting, signage, good bathrooms, room to park, enough seats to hold everyone, etc., are all up for grabs because none of these things is spelled out in detail in Scripture. So, the CGM studied how people react when attending a local body and they formulated a couple of principles (that work) and taught them to those who cared.

What is wrong with THAT?

Third, the CGM saw the greatest expansion of the church in the modern era. The last time there were mega-churches was during the time of the Apostles (unless one counts the community-wide parish of the RCC and others who emulated them). It is not consistent with the Bible to castigate those large congregations just because they are large, or just because they are more attractive to their target group than some ho-hum, locked in the 1950s, plink and plank and plunk Baptist Church somewhere.

What is wrong with THAT (other than the fact that the small church pastor who hates the concept of emulating the Apostle Paul and being missional cannot seem to increase his flock)?



The term I hear most often about a congregation that has used CGM principles to grow their congregation is "watered down." Yet, the small congregations, where seemingly they are not "watering down" their church bring in these "big church" pastors, evangelists, and music people for their outdated revival services, special events, pastor's conferences, and the like. Weird, huh? These "non-watered-down" pastors get fed from the preaching, teaching, books, music ministry, etc., of the ones they castigate.



In any regard, CGM is what it is -- a means to examine the outward issues of congregational church -- so that the inward means, a regenerate congregation, can stand firm in the Scriptures and preach Christ.

 

[freeatlast]

I can see how both Amy's and Oldtimer's arguments on this have some validity. On one hand a cowboy church sets itself apart for one type of people just as much as does one where people are expected to wear a suit although I have not seen that in many a year.
On the other hand as long as the tenets of the scriptures are taught and followed a Cowboy church is a good thing just like one where suits are wore if the word is taught. The main thing is the way the truth and the life.
1Cor 9:19-22
For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.

So if they are comfortable setting in church with their hats, chaps, and spurs on there is no command against such. As long as they are receiving the word and it is changing their lives unto holiness let them be.

 

[mont974x4]

For several years we hosted another church in our building on Sunday afternoons. It was a Korean Church. We have an Air Force base here and a large retiree population. As such, we have an substantial Korean population in our area. They formed their own church and we let them use our facilities. We also have an significant deaf population. As such we started a deaf church, which meets when they want to meet and use our facilities. We also interpret all our services and offer an American Sign Language class.

A biker church, cowboy church, what have you, in many cases is just trying to meet specific needs and a specific group of people.

 

[Amy.G]

A biker church, cowboy church, what have you, in many cases is just trying to meet specific needs and a specific group of people.

What needs to bikers and cowboys have that's different from any other sinner?

 

[mont974x4]

What needs to bikers and cowboys have that's different from any other sinner?

None. We all needed someone who could reach us with the truth. The reality is God sends many different types of people out to reach many different types of people.

Plus, like it or not, not every person is welcome in every church.

And there is the matter of choice. We have people who choose churches that are hymn-style churches. We have others that only sing modern choruses. Neither is wrong, but they are welcome places of fellowship for specific people and no one is against that. There is no reason to be against it just as there is no reason to be against a cowboy or biker church. Their style is different, the substance remains as it should.

On the 8th of this month I preached a sermon on what it means to worship in spirit and in truth. One key aspect is to ignore the unimportant externals that usually divide us, or we could be like the woman at the well and be concerned about location and need Christ to help us understand what God really expects of us.

 

[Amy.G]

None. We all needed someone who could reach us with the truth. The reality is God sends many different types of people out to reach many different types of people.

Plus, like it or not, not every person is welcome in every church.

And there is the matter of choice. We have people who choose churches that are hymn-style churches. We have others that only sing modern choruses. Neither is wrong, but they are welcome places of fellowship for specific people and no one is against that. There is no reason to be against it just as there is no reason to be against a cowboy or biker church. Their style is different, the substance remains as it should.

On the 8th of this month I preached a sermon on what it means to worship in spirit and in truth. One key aspect is to ignore the unimportant externals that usually divide us, or we could be like the woman at the well and be concerned about location and need Christ to help us understand what God really expects of us.

But how much more division can the church take and still stand? How many denominations are there? Now we're going into "personality" churches. Will we next have 1st Baptist church of harley riders? Lutheran cowboy church? What a mess!

 

[new]

What needs to bikers and cowboys have that's different from any other sinner?

Our Biker Church meets on Friday nights as there are normally Rallies and Rides on the weekend. This allows them to go to church and also be evangelists and missionaries to their community.

 

[mont974x4]

Different does not equal divisive. In fact, the many local fellowships in our area partner on a few projects to reach people in our community. We have an annual free Christian music festival where we have been blessed by the talents and testimonies of Casting Crowns, Jeremy Camp, the Newsboys, and others. There are in-church food pantries as well as a two large community food banks as well as the rescue mission.

If an area needs a First Baptist Church of Harley Riders in order to reach even one person and brings them into fellowship where they hear the pure Word of God and they grow in Christ then it is a good thing.

I'm sorry, I don't know what else I can say to help you understand.

 

[mont974x4]

Our Biker Church meets on Friday nights as there are normally Rallies and Rides on the weekend. This allows them to go to church and also be evangelists and missionaries to their community.

The one in our area meets on Saturdays. This allows them to be joined by people who work shift work and would otherwise miss being discipled. They start with a free dinner, which is used to meet the needs of the poor and homeless (and usually smelly) who would be unwelcome in most churches. On, Sundays they serve food to the homeless. During the week they deliver food to area churches that have food pantries. They have also been invited into school to share the dangers of drugs and alcohol. There are few churches in our area that do as much as they do for our community. It is not odd to some little grandma lady hugging some big tattooed biker.

 

[mont974x4]

I would rather see another humble cowboy church meeting at the fairgrounds preaching Christ and the pure Word than another existing church teaching health and wealth.

 

[Oldtimer]

Amy, in my humble opinion there is no division in the true church - the body of Christ. Once we become His, we're all the same. Doesn't matter if we come to Him wearing cowboy boots, biker leather, or hunter's camo. Doesn't matter if someone accepts Christ as their Saviour in First Baptist on North Main St or a under a bush arbor at John Smith's farm.

Again, IMHO, it's our responsibilty to use whatever gifts and tools the Lord has provided to bring the unsaved to Him. Yes, there is a big difference between those and "gimmicks", "tricks", and anything false/fake. If the Holy Spirit is leading a pastor to bring souls into His church, I can't see where it matters if the pastor is wearing cowboy boots or a football jersey.

 

[Amy.G]

I would rather see another humble cowboy church meeting at the fairgrounds preaching Christ and the pure Word than another existing church teaching health and wealth.

Totally unfair comparison. You are comparing the gospel to heretics.

 

[Oldtimer]

I would rather see another humble cowboy church meeting at the fairgrounds preaching Christ and the pure Word than another existing church teaching health and wealth.

AMEN!

Our pastor is beginning a new community outreach. He hasn't announced the details, yet. However, one thing he has stressed is that our job will be to help bring the unchurched/unsaved to church... Christ's church. Secondary to that is whether they join our congregation or another one in our area.

 

[gb93433]

This isn't an event. It's a church (if you want to call it that). I believe church should be centered around Christ, not cowboys or hunters or fishermen...hey I know, let's have hairdresser church..., and we can get our hair done while the choir is singing.....or nurse church,...they can pretend to give you shots of the Holy Spirit!

What is the difference between a Spanish speaking church, Chinese church, a white church, a Swedish Baptist church, a black church, etc.?

 

[gb93433]

AMEN!

Our pastor is beginning a new community outreach. He hasn't announced the details, yet. However, one thing he has stressed is that our job will be to help bring the unchurched/unsaved to church... Christ's church. Secondary to that is whether they join our congregation or another one in our area.

Why bring them to church. Why not reach them where they are and disciple them? They will eventually come if you do.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I just love how some baptists want churches to be fiercely independent so long those churches conform to their own preferences. How unGodly & even Satanic. That is SELF-centered not Christ-centered thinking. This is how Satan has destroyed the influence of Baptist churches within our culture. He has convinced them that their opinions, preferences, traditions, & church doctrine is essential for salvation and/or sanctification. Such condemnation of other believers reveals the wickedness of one's own hearts. HE said that the world will know us by our love for the brethren. Those who are attacking the brethren & claiming Christ-centeredness for yourselves have the same influence in our culture as the pharisees had in the time of Christ.

And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. (Luke 9:49-50)

 

[J.D.]

Third, the CGM saw the greatest expansion of the church in the modern era.

And why is this expansion countered by an equal reduction in the church's LOSS of influence on society?

 

[J.D.]

Although I am fiercely independent, Amy is right, in that the Bible does not represent the church as being broken down into every sub-culture imaginable. We are to somehow come together. There was no "Jewish" church, no "Gentile Church", no Male church, no Female Church, no Slave church, no free church, but all are one in Christ.

Cowboy churches are great for cowboys, but would a banker feel welcome there? How about a Bankers Church, would cowboys feel welcome? Would I feel welcome in either one? Would I have to wear cowboy boots to feel like I belonged there?

This is all division of the Church along superficial, even worldly, fashions. Wouldn't the Lord expect the banker and the cowboy to learn to sit together and fellowship in the Lord? Isn't the mark of a mature (i.e, "perfect" in the KJV) church is one that is NOT divided?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Although I am fiercely independent, Amy is right, in that the Bible does not represent the church as being broken down into every sub-culture imaginable. We are to somehow come together. There was no "Jewish" church, no "Gentile Church", no Male church, no Female Church, no Slave church, no free church, but all are one in Christ.

Cowboy churches are great for cowboys, but would a banker feel welcome there? How about a Bankers Church, would cowboys feel welcome? Would I feel welcome in either one? Would I have to wear cowboy boots to feel like I belonged there?

This is all division of the Church along superficial, even worldly, fashions. Wouldn't the Lord expect the banker and the cowboy to learn to sit together and fellowship in the Lord? Isn't the mark of a mature (i.e, "perfect" in the KJV) church is one that is NOT divided?

The church does not meet as one massive body. People of like culture naturally congregate together. The Church will always be divided into smaller member groups until we are all together with Christ. Would you mandate who must sit with whom & where? Who are you to judge the hearts of those who are reaching out to segments of the population to whom they can relate & communicate? Your position is nonsensical. Do you demand that all baptists meet together in one great body in every city & county? Please think about this a little longer in light of the reality of the Church being many members which work together to fulfill God's purpose in His way.