Church music...

We've been through this before. In the early 1700s, music in the Church of England was primarily from the canticles and psalms. Only six other hymn texts were allowed to be sung. It is interesting, given the season, that one of these was "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks". (Source: William J. Reynolds, Companion to Baptist Hymnal, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1976.)

While I generally enjoy older hymns, I also enjoy many new hymns (you know, written after 1800 :laugh: ). I think that God is still speaking to us, and that includes songs and music. Of course that allows for the possibility of some bad hymns. Even Fanny Crosby wrote some things that weren't worth singing. Over time the bad will fall away and the good will rise to the top.

Tim Reynolds

 

Just a musical version of Onlyism. I get a kick out of Hymnalism. How about people who like hymns, worship with hymns and people who worship with newer music, worship with newer music.

 

So do you still believe in Prophecy Telling? Are there Prophets today? If God is still speaking to us, is the Scripture still open to be added to?

 

Where is this command? And what are the hymns and spiritual songs?

 

The 'command' Japheph may be referring to in Ephesians 5?

But wait!... Is says 'speaking to yourselves,' not 'singing to yourselves'.

I see no specific command in the Word of God that one is to sing the Psalms and them only.

Seems to me, many of the modern songs1800's and forward are very spiritual. Fanny Crosby wrote some beautiful hymns. True not all songs written that carry the name 'Gospel' are not Gospel in message. That is where discernment comes into play.

 

Pastor Larry,


Have you ever heard of a triadic Expression? It was very common place in Hebrew culture and language... It was a common literary method among the ancient Jews to use a triadic form of expression to express an idea, act, or object. The Bible contains many examples of triadic expression.

For example:

Exodus 34:7—“iniquity and transgression and sin”
Deuteronomy 5:31 and 6:1—“commandments and statutes and judgements”
Matthew 22:37—“with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind”
Acts 2:22—“miracles and wonders and signs”

and

Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16—“psalms and hymns and spiritual song.”

The triadic distinction used by Paul would be readily understood by those familiar with their Hebrew OT Psalter, where the Psalm titles are differentiated psalms, hymns, and songs. This interpretation does justice to the analogy of Scripture, i.e., Scripture is its own best interpreter.”


So Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs are all sub categories of the Book of "Tehillem", which Tehillem is translated "Praise", it is what we call The book of Psalms. The Book of Psalms is made up of Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs.

So we are only commanded to sing from the Psalter in Eph 5:19 and Col. 3:16 plus other Passages that just said "Sing Psalms" from the Book of Psalms, the Book of Chronicles, and the Book of James.

 

What does spiritual mean when said in Spiritual Songs? The history of the church and all the best commentators tell us that Spiritual means songs that are written by the Holy Spirit or by inspiration.... Sounds like the book of Psalms to me and it does to with John Calvin, John Gill, The Puritans, and the early Church fathers including Augustine, etc...

 

Some additional thoughts...


The interpretation that says that “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs” refers to the inspired book of Psalms also receives biblical support from the immediate context and grammar of these passages. In Colossians 3:16 we are exhorted: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly” In this passage the word of Christ is very synonymous with the word of God.



In 1 Pet. 1:11 it is stated that ‘the spirit of Christ’ was in the Old Testament prophets and through them testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory which should follow. If, as is definitely stated, the Spirit of Christ testified these things through the prophets, then Christ was the real Author of those Scriptures. Prominent among those prophecies, which so testified concerning Christ, is the Book of Psalms, and therefore Christ is the Author of the Psalms.



After Paul exhorts the Colossian church to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly, he immediately points them to the book of Psalms; a book which comprehends “most beautifully and briefly everything that is in the entire Bible;” a book far superior to any human devotional book, which Calvin called “an anatomy of all parts of the soul; ”a book which is “a compendium of all divinity.”

 

I have never heard the term "Prophecy Telling", so I don't know whether I believe in it or not. I believe that God will call forth prophets as they are needed. I suspect that there are some working today, but we can't hear them. That is a problem with our ability to hear, not God's ability to communicate. Our biggest problem with hearing comes from our declaring that we have all the answers, or that we can find them in scripture. We use the Bible as an answer book to solve all our problems. And we cannot afford to recognize additional revelation from God because of the possibility that it might contradict our collection of pat answers that we have derived from scripture. Finally, I suppose scripture should still be open to the inclusion of additional material, but I doubt it will happen because we cannot agree on anything.

Tim Reynolds

 

for those new to the exclusive Psalmody debate, please see this link.
http://jonathangoundry.blogspot.com/

 

Where do I start here... Hmm.... The fact that you said we can allow for additional material in the scripture is unorthodox and very heretical. It denies Sola Scriptura, By Scripture Alone. Scripture is complete. The apostles ceased with the death of the Apostle John and no further revelation will be received until consummation.

Both the London Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith testifies to this...

WCF 1:2 "Under the name of holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these 66 books of the bible."

WCF 1:6 "The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added."

The Office of Apostles and Prophets have come to an end at the end of the Apostolical Era. The Form of Church Government 1646 states:

"THE officers which Christ hath appointed for the edification of his church, and the perfecting of the saints, are, some extraordinary, as apostles, evangelists, and prophets, which are ceased.

Others ordinary and perpetual, as pastors, teachers and Deacons."

We do not have Apostles and Prophets today otherwise the scripture would be open and Sola Scriptura would be false.

This is Baptist and Protestant Theology, any other would be Roman Catholic or Open Theism. The Canon is closed. We have the full revelation of God that we are going to receive here on this Earth.

Now that, that is cleared up. The reason I asked the question regarding Prophecy with regards to music is this....

The Psalms are Prophetic Utterances. They were all written by Prophets and only prophets can write by the inspiration of the Spirit of God songs to be sung in His worship...

David: Now these are the last words of David: The oracle of David, the son of Jesse, the oracle of the man who was raised on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, the sweet psalmist of Israel

Asaph: was called a "seer" or prophet. At the close of the New Testament Canon the office of Prophet came to an end.. In the days before Christ, God used prophets to teach men about Himself. Prophets were not born into their positions because of their family heritage (such as the priests being born into the tribe of Levi), but were rather people who answered the personal call of God on their lives. Their holy testimony and close walk with God allowed them to know the heart of God in an intimate way. Many Old Testament prophets or seers were given some divine vision to allow them to foretell future events. Asaph wrote at least 12 of the Psalms: 50, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Heman: 1 chronicles 25:5 "All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn. And God gave to Heman fourteen sons and three daughters."

2 Chronicles 29:

25 And he stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with stringed instruments, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, of Gad the king´s seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for thus was the commandment of the LORD by His prophets.

27 Then Hezekiah commanded them to offer the burnt offering on the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD also began, with the trumpets and with the instruments of David king of Israel. 28 So all the assembly worshiped, the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded; all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

No song was ever written by someone not a prophet that was used for the worship of God. They also all prophesied Christ which I will cover in the next post. But the fact remains is that Praise which is in the worship element of Song are the Words of Christ sung back to him.. The Psalter is God's Hymnbook for the Church.

 

His Suppositions are flawed.

Let me see if I get answer a few of them.... I already stated what Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs are in previous post. They are Tradic Expressions and I need not recover that information and this blog entry has ALOT of flaws so let me try to cover some of the bigger basic ones and maybe later I will cover some others....

1. He stated that "The context is private not public" in reference to Eph 5 and Col. 3.

A. Eph. 5:18-19 states "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord."

Also Col. 3:16 states "16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Know the "speaking to one another" and "teaching and admonishing one another". This is worship not private.. we do not teach one another, or admonish one another, or speaking to one another in private worship. This is corporate worship... This is the Lord's Day Worship when we teach and admonish one another, when we speak to one another in Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs.

2. Where is he getting is definition of Hymns and Songs? What is a Hymn?

A. We can NOT put our modern definition onto scripture... When a person hears the word hymn today, he immediately thinks of the extra-biblical non-inspired hymns found in the pews of most churches. The only way to really determine what Paul meant by “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs” is to determine how these terms were used by Greek-speaking Christians in the first century. We MUST think like a first century Christians and what they meant by Hymn 1900 years ago.. By the way the heretic Arius was the first Non Inspired Hymn writer in the church to promote his heresies and that was 300 years after the beginning of the church.

3. He then stated "The New Testament is the full revelation of Christ. Heb 1:1-3 We therefore are to sing the propositional truth found in the New Testament, hence the Word of Christ in Col 3:16 is the lyrical content of the Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs."

A. The New Testament testifies of Christ in the old testament and in the book of Psalms in Luke 24:27. The Psalms ARE about Christ and Christ IS the Psalms.. Clearly he is thinking like a dispensationalist, though I do not know his theology. Everything that is written of Christ is also found in the Psalms... Should I quote some? Here is a bit of my research.... I also recommend you read "The Treasury of David" By Charles Spurgeon...

Christ In Psalms

Many of the psalms specifically anticipate the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, the
One who came centuries later as Israel’s promised Messiah (“anointed one”). Like
the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) in the New Testament, Psalms
gives several perspectives on the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, the King (portrayed in Matthew)
Chapter 2 – Christ rejected as King of the nations
Chapter 18 – Christ is Protector and Deliverer
Chapter 20 – Christ provides salvation
Chapter 21 – Christ is given glory by God
Chapter 24 – Christ is King of Glory
Chapter 47 – Christ rules in His kingdom
Chapter 110 – Christ is King-Priest
Chapter 132 – Christ is enthroned

Jesus Christ, the Servant (portrayed in Mark)
Chapter 17 – Christ is Intercessor
Chapter 17 22 – Christ is dying Savior
Chapter 17 23 – Christ is Shepherd
Chapter 17 40 – Christ is obedient unto death
Chapter 17 41 – Christ is betrayed by a close friend
Chapter 17 69 – Chris is hated without cause
Chapter 17 109 – Christ loves those who reject Him

Jesus Christ, the Son of Man (portrayed in Luke)
Chapter 17 8 – Christ is made a little lower than angels
Chapter 17 16 – Christ’s resurrection is promised
Chapter 17 40 – Christ’s resurrection is realized

Jesus Christ, the Son of God (portrayed in John)
Chapter 17 19 – Christ is Creator
Chapter 17 102 – Christ is eternal
Chapter 17 118 – Christ is the Chief Cornerstone



Here are some of the specific prophecies about Jesus in the Book of Psalms:
Psalm Prophecy Fulfillment

2:7 God will declare Him to be His Son Matthew 3:17
8:6 All things will be put under His feet Hebrews 2:8
16:10 He will be resurrected from the dead Mark 16:6-7
22:1 God will forsake Him in His hour of need Matthew 27:46
22:7-8 He will be scorned and mocked Luke 23:35
22:16 His hands and feet will be pierced John 20:25,27
22:18 Others will gamble for His clothes Matthew 27:35-36
34:20 Not one of His bones will be broken John 19:32-33, 36
35:11 He will be accused by false witnesses Mark 14:57
35:19 He will be hated without a cause John 15:25
40:7-8 He will come to do God’s will Hebrews 10:7
41:9 He will be betrayed by a friend Luke 22:47
45:6 His throne will be forever Hebrews 1:8
68:18 He will ascend to God’s right hand Mark 16:19
69:9 Zeal for God’s house will consume Him John 2:17
69:21 He will be given vinegar and gall to drink Matthew 27:34
109:4 He will pray for His enemies Luke 23:34
109:8 His betrayer’s office will be fulfilled by another Acts 1:20
110:1 His enemies will be made subject to Him Matthew 22:44
110:4 He will be a priest like Melchizedek Hebrews 5:6
118:22 He will be the chief cornerstone Matthew 21:42
118:26 He will come in the name of the Lord Matthew 21:9



New Testament Subjects in the Book of Psalms

Trinity Psalm 110:1

Ps 110:1 Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Cross Psalm 22

Psalm 22 is a Messianic Psalm. It is also a Passion Psalm, telling of the death of the Christ.

 

Sing to the LORD a new song; Sing to the LORD, all the earth. Psalm 96:1

O sing to the LORD a new song, For He has done wonderful things, His right hand and His holy arm have gained the victory for Him. Psalm 98:1

Praise the LORD! Sing to the LORD a new song, And His praise in the congregation of the godly ones. Psalm 149:1

Sing to the LORD a new song, Sing His praise from the end of the earth! You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it. You islands, and those who dwell on them. Isaiah 42:10


I haven't found the phrase, "sing to the Lord an old song" in the bible, but there are definitely lots of good oldies. I think the Lord loves it when we use our creativity to worship him from the heart.

 

Japheth,

My only problem with your last two posts is the way that they limit God. Everything you said may in fact be true. God may have ended the divine revelation to us. All of the confessions you mentioned are part of Baptist history, but they are also human constructions based on a particular interpretation of scripture. I am not willing to assume that God has stopped speaking to us. I would point you to Isaiah 43.18-19a.

My reading of the whole Bible shows many instances of God breaking into history to do something new. A few examples include the Creation, the promise to Abraham, the Exodus, the Exile, the coming of Christ. If God wants to make changes in the way God does things, that is God's business. It is not for me to make authoritative statements about what God is doing.

Finally, I resent being called heretical by another human being who doesn't know anything more than I do.

Tim Reynolds

 

Hello and welcome.

First, I will say your usage of the word 'heresy' and 'heresies' so easily gives rise to caution in speaking with you as flags are raised on my part. So I will tread watchfully that I may better know you here on the BB.

Second, no one disagrees that the psalms are in regard to the book of the psalms and if there is a person who disagrees they have not yet conveyed their understanding. But what you DIDN'T speak to nor go into any depth or defining is what a Hymn is and what the phrase 'spiritual songs' means.

Again no disputes that the both the hymns and spiritual songs should doctrinally sound, exhaultive of God and Christ, in both praise and thanksgiving.

So if you would be so kind as to elaborate a little more, it would be benifial to the rest of us.

Thanks. :thumbs:

 

Don't forget Revelation where we all will sing a New Song as well in Rev 5, and in Rev 14 there will be a new song sung that will only be sung by the 144,000.


Also - not to be a stickler but here are the ones you missed

 

Thanks. :thumbs:

 

First, Where do these "New Songs" come from? We are NEVER told to write New Songs but Sing New Songs... The songs are written by the Spirit of God. When the New Song is mentioned in the Psalms it is talking a bout the Psalms themselves....

Second, We are never told to even sing new songs in the new testament. It is in the old testament and in heavenly worship in revelation...

Third.. What is a "New Song"? The Word new is "Cadash" in Hebrew and does not mean new thing, or something new.. Strongs 2318 says "To be new", to renew, to repair which leads to 2319 fresh....

So the New Song in Isaiah and in the Psalms are talking about the Psalms in a light of renewal, freshness and newness... Not new in Quantity....

As for the New Testament, besides Revelation (We will get to it), WE HAVE NO COMMAND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT TO WRITE NEW SONGS. In fact WE ARE NOT even told to SING a New Song... Ah OH, what will we do.. If we do not have a command to sing new Songs what will we sing... I guess the Old Songs.. And given Strong's definition We sing the Old Songs in the New Light or in Newness....

What about the command in Revelation? Well for starters this is heavenly worship NOT the New Testament Church. We MIGHT get to Sing new songs in heaven when we get there because of new revelation, but we do not know.. If we do get to Sing new Songs in heaven we will not be writing them, they will be inspired by the Holy Spirit as is all songs made for worship in Scripture. But it is more plausible that we will still be singing the Old Songs... I heard this from one of my Elders, but I need to studied it more.. He said that of all the Songs in Revelation mentioned all of them are repeated in the Psalter minus 2 but those two might have a connectional language with two other Psalms..

We sing the Psalms in Newiness of Quality NOT quantity.......

The book of Psalms speaks of singing the New Song and it is talking about the Psalms themselves....

What about Revelation 14:1-5, John says that “no one could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.” Again, it is apparent that he is not speaking of the content of a specific song, for anyone can learn the music and lyrics of particular songs, regardless of whether or not they are redeemed. John refers instead to the meaning of the Song that he heard, which was concealed from the minds of those who did not have the understanding of faith.

Remember that the Psalms were the exclusive praise songs of the apostolic Church. When a Jew was converted to Christ, the Psalms of David, which he had sung from his infancy, suddenly became – in a very real sense – “new songs!” Did not Paul say, “For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

So Let us Sing the Psalms In new light which is revealed unto us through Christ.

 

You need to read alittle closer..

I never called you a heretic.. I treaded lightly, I do not even know you yet... I said the belief in an open canon is heresy... It denies one of the central important tenets of the Christian Faith, By Scripture Alone. This is one of 5 central doctrines the Reformation was fought over and why millions of people have lost their lives defending the Reformation. It is by Christ are we saved in Faith by Grace Alone, By the Word of God through Scripture Alone and Glory to God Alone.

To say that the canon is still open sends a raised red flag on my part.

 

First, I never stated you called 'me' a heretic. If you will, look again at your post I quoted and responded to and you will see just how off base you are.

Second, you still didn't address the rest of my post.

Third, I will deal later with latest post and your misunderstanding and contradiction even of yourself.

Thanks again :thumbs:
Allan V.