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church of Christ
- Thread starter JSM17
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Darron Steele
New Member
The thread originator's profile says that s/he is "un-denominational," a practice used to distinguish themselves from non-denominational fellowships. S/he also used lower case "church of Christ" as thread title, which is a practice used to claim that their group is the entirety of the Lord's church.
I predict that the intent is to promote a certain portion of the Churches of Christ.
I predict that the intent is to promote a certain portion of the Churches of Christ.
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church of GOD
I was indeed curious in how many would react to the statement. The statement is declarative in thought. It is not meant to be controversal, but true. I view salvation as something obeyed not earned by human merit. Some say that all work are excluded from salvation, yet claim faith is required, but deny what Jesus said about faith being a work that man takes part of in doing works pleasing unto God.
John 6:28-30
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
KJV
I was indeed curious in how many would react to the statement. The statement is declarative in thought. It is not meant to be controversal, but true. I view salvation as something obeyed not earned by human merit. Some say that all work are excluded from salvation, yet claim faith is required, but deny what Jesus said about faith being a work that man takes part of in doing works pleasing unto God.
John 6:28-30
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
KJV
Tom Butler
New Member
JSM17 said:
If you're actually describing faith as a work, this scripture won't do the trick. V. 29 calls belief in Jesus a work of God, not us. This is consistent with other verses which describe faith as a gift.
Such as, Ephesians 2:8-10, which specifically says that faith is a gift of God, and not of works.
By the way, I am a Baptist. Now you know where I'm coming from. If you are Church of Christ, why not just say so?
John 6:28
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
NKJV
Did Jesus tell them that there was no work for them to do? Notice that they asked what shall we do, that we may work.
Jesus tells them that faith is a work.
Do you believe that God believes for you?
faith comes from hearing the word of God, does this take action (work) in our minds to accept?
Is repentance a work that we do our is it something that God does for us?
What about confession does God confess Christ for us or do we do this by works?
When scripture tells us that something is "UNTO" salvation then we can know that this thing must preceed salvation.
It would be intersting to hear what some think when Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
What kind of baptism does Jesus refer to here? Did Jesus really say that one must be baptized to be saved or was He mistaken?
What was the baptism that Jesus commanded in the Great commision that men should go intot he world and administer? Did you know that Mark and Luke give accounts of the Great commision as well? Is Jesus talking about two different baptisms in Mark and in Matthew?
Salvation has always been conditional on obedience towards God.
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
NKJV
Did Jesus tell them that there was no work for them to do? Notice that they asked what shall we do, that we may work.
Jesus tells them that faith is a work.
Do you believe that God believes for you?
faith comes from hearing the word of God, does this take action (work) in our minds to accept?
Is repentance a work that we do our is it something that God does for us?
What about confession does God confess Christ for us or do we do this by works?
When scripture tells us that something is "UNTO" salvation then we can know that this thing must preceed salvation.
It would be intersting to hear what some think when Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
What kind of baptism does Jesus refer to here? Did Jesus really say that one must be baptized to be saved or was He mistaken?
What was the baptism that Jesus commanded in the Great commision that men should go intot he world and administer? Did you know that Mark and Luke give accounts of the Great commision as well? Is Jesus talking about two different baptisms in Mark and in Matthew?
Salvation has always been conditional on obedience towards God.
JSM17 said:
The coc doesnt believe that one is saved by grace thru faith, they believe that Baptism saves them and only baptism. Just ask them, they will tell you that you are not saved until you are baptized and they use certain verses out of context to make there point. They also believe that you can lose your salvation
This verse is used out of context of course to back there claim
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
as well as
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Myself and other evangelicals would regard The International Church of Christ a cult. I use to attend their Crossroads Church of Christ in Gainesville, FL. The Crossroads Church of Christ used many cult tatics in winning converts. Man, they wouldn't give up in trying to convert me to their Church of Christ. I can say without a shadow of doubt, that the International Church of Christ is a cult.
Joseph Finn, Ph.D.( American Religious History)
Joseph Finn, Ph.D.( American Religious History)
I was born and raised in the church of Christ for 20 yrs and I started studying and connecting the dots and the Holy Spirit led me out of that Cult. Ive been out of it for 19 yrs but my Mom is still in the coC. Sometimes I go and visit her and I almost puke during the service at the stuff that they say and teach. Its a shame that they have the bible so twisted. I go about 1once every two or three years for a homecoming and it sickens me to hear how they twist the scriptures and take things out of context. That word right there is what got me out of the coC "CONTEXT" I wish that everyone knew about CONTEXT and that they didnt take one liners out of the bible and try to make the bible say what they want it to say. I went to a funeral of someone that I grew up knowing that was a member of the coC and my mom introduced me to a lady and it was kinda funny she said and what church do you go to and I said I go to the Baptist Church and you would have thought that I slapped that lady in the face, the way she looked at me. I wouldnt have expected anything less though.
Is this post called complaining about someone wanting to debate or is it debate doctrinal issues with other denominations?
Assertions about what I believe is futile since you do not know me or even the church in which I am part of. I am not icoc or ucoc, lumping all churches with the words Christ and church would be like lumping all the baptists together who cannot even agree on issues.
All I did was present some points about scripture and all I get is a bunch of complaining. Wow thats effective, gee I thought I could at least get some good conversations going about these issues, but I guess not. I do not think I was telling anyone they were wrong and I certainly have no intentions of converting anyone, that's what God does, not man.
The issues are still on the table if anyone actually wants to deal with them, if not just keep complaining about someone you do not know.
Oh and I do not believe that one is saved by baptism alone as the gentleman has asserted. Your not dealing with a denomination or some religious group, I am a man with convictions about the word of God. Assumptions need not apply.
Assertions about what I believe is futile since you do not know me or even the church in which I am part of. I am not icoc or ucoc, lumping all churches with the words Christ and church would be like lumping all the baptists together who cannot even agree on issues.
All I did was present some points about scripture and all I get is a bunch of complaining. Wow thats effective, gee I thought I could at least get some good conversations going about these issues, but I guess not. I do not think I was telling anyone they were wrong and I certainly have no intentions of converting anyone, that's what God does, not man.
The issues are still on the table if anyone actually wants to deal with them, if not just keep complaining about someone you do not know.
Oh and I do not believe that one is saved by baptism alone as the gentleman has asserted. Your not dealing with a denomination or some religious group, I am a man with convictions about the word of God. Assumptions need not apply.
Darron Steele
New Member
Well, it is coming.JSM17 said:
You present nothing new. Your positions have been presented here many times -- and refuted here many times. Maybe the long-time members like me get tired of this stuff, and are not eager to jump up and indulge you in the same `game.'
I had Valentine's Day this weekend with my fiancee, and she had a three-day weekend. I also have an evening job. Dealing with your positions yet again has a low priority to me, as very few people here are open to rejecting the Bible's teachings on salvation by faith. When I get around to it, I plan to address your positions yet again.
By the way, what did you read as "complaining"? I saw nothing to that effect.
Well, complaints, if they exist, prove nothing. The same is true of self-congratulation and boasting.
Your challenge had been up barely a full day when you posted the above. Self-congratulation and boasting is quite premature. Good night.
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JSM17 said:
You want conversation, first I ask for your scripture to back up you claim that one MUST do the steps above then we will begin a civilized conversation.
Just so you know Im not argueing your steps, Im arguing your application of those steps
Hear
Believe
Repent
Confess
Be Baptized for remission of sins
These are your steps are they not. My view is that you are saved after the HEAR, and BELIEVE. We have to hear it before we can believe it,(TRUE) but once we Believe it with our hearts and accept Jesus for what he did for us, we are SAVED. We repent because of what Jesus did, people that are not saved, do not repent, We confess Jesus because of what he did for us, people that are not saved, do not confess Jesus as there Lord and Savior. We are baptized because we want to be obedent(spelling is bad) to the Lord, people that are not saved have no desire to be obedient.
Joh 3:14-18 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (15) so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (17) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. (18) He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
You didn't debate. You asserted.JSM17 said:
Your OP was an assertion taken right out of the COC statement of faith. This particular statement has been posted here many times:
Salvation is conditional.
"One must:
believe, repent, confess, and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins."
--This is old news. It has been rehashed here many times before. You stated not something uniquely yours; but something right out of the statement of faith of the COC. This is not your opinion. It is your denominational statement of faith.
That OP did not contain any Scripture. It was a statement contrary to Scripture. It contradicts Scripture. It presents a false gospel.
What issues?
That salvation is by works?
That salvation is by baptism?
Both of those issues are unscriptural and take away from the all sufficient blood of Christ--that His atoning blood was not sufficient enough to pay the penalty for our sins. You believe when Christ said "It is finished," that "IT" (salvation) was not finished, for you still have to add to the work of his atoning work of salvation by being baptized.
You will not get much of an audience here for those beliefs.
Let's repost again what you said:
Baptism is in that list isn't it? As long as baptism is in that list you believe in baptismal regeneration or salvation by baptism. That is the statement that others are making. That is the statement that you have made in your OP.
You opened this thread.
You jumped in here with both feet.
If you can't take the heat, then get out of the fire.
Tom Butler
New Member
Okay, let's take the contention that faith is a work.
There's no question that faith and salvation are connected. Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
If faith is a work, then we earn our salvation by a work.
However, Philippians 1:29 says:faith is a gift:
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake....
So is repentance: Acts 11:17: God gives the gift of repentance:
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Further, Titus 3:5 clearly says salvation is not of works :"Not by works of righteousness which we have done...."
Now if salvation is by through faith and not of works of righeousness, then faith cannot be a work.
If it is a work, that salvation is not through faith.
Gifts cannot be earned.
There's no question that faith and salvation are connected. Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
If faith is a work, then we earn our salvation by a work.
However, Philippians 1:29 says:faith is a gift:
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake....
So is repentance: Acts 11:17: God gives the gift of repentance:
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Further, Titus 3:5 clearly says salvation is not of works :"Not by works of righteousness which we have done...."
Now if salvation is by through faith and not of works of righeousness, then faith cannot be a work.
If it is a work, that salvation is not through faith.
Gifts cannot be earned.
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If coc is a cult then why are cults allowed to post on the BB? Ang most people would agree they are a cult, they change biblical salvation, as we've seen demonstrated on this thread, by changing it it is no longer the salvation preached in scripture, it is a cult.
So again I ask, why are cults allowed to post on the BB? Is any cult/false relgion allowed to post here?
So again I ask, why are cults allowed to post on the BB? Is any cult/false relgion allowed to post here?
I would like someone to define a cult and then tell me if it can be applied. Most people throw that word around so loosely, they cannot even tell you what it means.
As for the order or when something will be obeyed. The scriptures clearly teach that repentance leads to salvation, and that confession is something that is done before salvation occurs.
2 Cor 7:10
10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NKJV
Rom 10:10
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV
It is clear that repentance would be something that must occur before salvation since it is leading to salvation. Besides is not repentance demanded of us in oder to be forgiven, a change of mind and heart? Because of certain doctrines many would s this has to happen after salvation or then we are meriting our saving position, but because God grants repentance to individuals does it mean that he somehow does it for you?
Since most of you have heard all these arguements before then you should understand the simple logic in them. Does God believe for you or is that something that you must do?
Somethings lead one to salvation, the bible clearly states that. Nobody in bible history was saved without obeying what God had clearly advised him.
As for the order or when something will be obeyed. The scriptures clearly teach that repentance leads to salvation, and that confession is something that is done before salvation occurs.
2 Cor 7:10
10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NKJV
Rom 10:10
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV
It is clear that repentance would be something that must occur before salvation since it is leading to salvation. Besides is not repentance demanded of us in oder to be forgiven, a change of mind and heart? Because of certain doctrines many would s this has to happen after salvation or then we are meriting our saving position, but because God grants repentance to individuals does it mean that he somehow does it for you?
Since most of you have heard all these arguements before then you should understand the simple logic in them. Does God believe for you or is that something that you must do?
Somethings lead one to salvation, the bible clearly states that. Nobody in bible history was saved without obeying what God had clearly advised him.
thegospelgeek
New Member
JSM17
Can one be filled with the Holy Spirit while in an unsaved unregenerate condition?
Can one be filled with the Holy Spirit while in an unsaved unregenerate condition?
Tom Butler
New Member
JSM17 said:
You can clear up any question by simply declaring what faith group you embrace. I don't understand the reluctance to simply say so.
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