-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
church of Christ
- Thread starter JSM17
- Start date
- Status
I don't know what he is trying to say here:donnA said:
It appears to be a bit deceitful. For his OP is a statement lifted right out of the COC statement of faith, and has been posted by various COCers many times over. The differences between them is miniscule. Therefore just treat him as you would any other typical COC. That is what he is.
thegospelgeek
New Member
CoC is governed like FWB and many other baptist in that each church is autonomous(sp). Unlike Baptist, they get al defensive when someone calls them CoC and lumps them together. They also get picky about terminology such as Pastor/Elder/Preacher, revivals/Gospel meetings, etc. It matters not if he identifies himself with the CoC, he needs to defend his staement of the necessity of Water baptism. Or we could just role play it out, we have seen it enough in just the short time I have been here.DHK said:
I don't understand this need to come and try to change everyone's doctrine. Should I start creating threads to convince everyone about my views of predestination and eternal security? How about we all go to a Pentecostal Forum and convince them that the gift of tounges is not real. Then we can all find a WoF site and staighten them up on healing. Ya'll ready?
If we all stop trying to convince each other of doctrine then we have no board of debate! Yes, we need to keep debating doctrines until Jesus comes to straighten us all out. :thumbsup: We learn and hopefully we grow and change when confronted with truth or error.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: FTR: I am not COC and my beliefs do not come out of any church manual. ( This is not directed to you Tom, but others may not know that )
I also believe that faith is indeed a work and that without being so it cannot be an act of faith. Faith requires a formed intent by man. That In no wise suggests that man does anything meritorious or does anything to ‘earn’ their salvation as you suggest it does. Exercising faith, just as exercising repentance, is a condition of salvation, not the means thereof. The prison illustration I have posted many times set forth this truth. Here it is once more.
A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. You cannot then consider any intents or actions as the grounds of his pardon, not could you say that he in any way could ‘merit’ a pardon. IF he is granted a pardon it cannot be said that in any sense his pardon was ‘for the sake of’ anything the prisoner had done or could do.
Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just. . If the prisoner is to receive a pardon it still can be said that there must be attitudes that are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word being something the prisoner must do. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal. Here we see that the intents and actions of the prisoner indeed do play a part in a pardon, though again, not in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' The sense that the intents and works of the prisoner are involved in a pardon can only be seen in the sense of 'not without which,' not 'that for the sake of.' Nothing the prisoner can or will do can merit a pardon, but just the same neither will he receive a pardon without repentance and an assurance of future behavior is garnered.
What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are again, in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on the account of any or all of their works. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’
It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’) in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.
Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?
Of a truth both faith and repentance both involve an act of the will as conditions to salvation and as such are in a sense works, yet neither demand in any way that man has done something meritorious to 'earn' their salvation as you suggest.
Bible clearly says that we are saved by works.
the Bible clearly says that we are saved by works. But, we must make sure that we understand, not all works save. There are many “kinds” of works. The only works that save are the works that God has given us. Even faith is, in some sense, a “work”! This is clearly stated by Jesus in John 6:29. When Jesus was asked what we must do to work the works of God he replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” And, faith – if it is true faith – will produce good works. If it does not, it is not true faith! Consider I Thessalonians 1:3; II Thessalonians 1:11 cf. James 2:14-26. But, as we have said, not just any kind of “works” save! There are works of the Devil (John 8:41) and works of men (Matthew 15:8-9; Mark 7:6-9) and works of sin (Romans 7:7-25) and works of the flesh (Galatians 5:16-24) and even works of self-righteousness (Matthew 23:3, 5; Titus 3:5). There are also the works of the Law that Paul talks about in Romans 3:20,27-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Galatians 2:16; 3:2,5,10; etc. No one is ever saved by these kinds of works! But, there are also the works of God – works that God has given us by his grace and these are the works that we must “do.” Consider John 4:34; 6:27-29; 9:4 etc. Peter said, “In every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted by him.” (Acts 10:35) The “righteousness” that we are to “work” is not our own, but that found in God.
In Ephesians 2:8-10 we are told, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God – not of works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Many try and force this passage to mean that we are saved by “grace only through faith only” and yet the context of all Scripture refutes such a notion. If salvation has nothing to do with any kind of works, then, as we have seen, it has nothing to do with faith because even faith is a “work” God has given us! God has also given us the “works” of repentance and baptism as well. The kind of works that have nothing to do with our salvation are those in which we can boast! When the Lord gives us a “work” and we “do” it, we have no right to boast. It is only by grace that we have been given that work in our life. Consider Luke 17:10 – “So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” Perhaps no passage captures the beauty of grace and works better than Philippians 2:12-13 – “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Thus, even when we are baptized – and we must be baptized in order to be saved – it is “through faith in the working of God.” See Colossians 2:12. In baptism we are really not doing much of anything. It is God and his Spirit that does everything in the new birth. We are merely submitting to the will of God.
Here is another important key point: Why isn’t baptism just as much a work of God and grace as faith is? As we have seen, faith and baptism are both works of God and grace in our lives. It is all about grace! Yet, when we believe, that work of faith does not minimize grace. When we repent, that work of faith does not minimize grace. So, why should baptism (an act that is done “through faith in the working of God”) minimize grace? The truth is, it does not! Baptism is just as much a matter of grace as faith is. If not, why not? The only reason baptism is “not” all about grace and faith is because that is what men in their man-made creeds have done to it. It is not because God ever did that. If faith is a matter of pure grace, so is repentance and so is baptism into Christ for the forgiveness of sins!
Sometimes it looks like no one really believes the doctrine of “faith only.” Why? Well, because when you press them about love and even repentance being necessary for salvation they will usually admit that both are also essential. (In other words, don’t you really have to love God in order to be saved? Don’t you really have to repent of your sins in order to be saved? So, it is not just faith, it is also about loving God and it is also about repenting of your sins.) So, what about baptism? It too is just as necessary in God’s purpose and plan! Remember, on the day of Pentecost when the people asked, “What shall we do to be saved?”, Peter did not tell them, “Well, you are already saved because you have already believed.” And, he did not tell them to, “Pray the sinners prayer and accept Jesus into your heart.” No! What he told them is what he tells us: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off – as many as the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39)
Again, whenever the New Testament says that we are “saved by faith, not by works,” the “works” it is referring to are never those things that God has commanded us to do ... for he has even commanded faith, let alone repentance and baptism. The kinds of “works” that have nothing to do with our salvation are those that are based in “self-righteousness” or in “legalistic law-keeping.” (Remember, this is what Paul is dealing with in Galatians and Romans and this was the heresy of the Judaising teachers in the early church.) And, we have seen that when we do whatever the Lord asks of us, we have nothing to boast about. That men try and make “baptism into Christ and his body” a work of anything other than God’s righteousness is damnable! To say that “baptism for the forgiveness of sins and salvation” is anything other than pure grace is heresy! Anything that God gives us in salvation – whether it is faith, repentance or baptism – is grace! In John 3:21 we are told, “But he that does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be made manifest that they have been wrought (i.e., worked) in God.” This is what the “work of faith” is all about!
Finally, we need to accept that if the Bible says that we are saved by faith (and it does!) and if the Bible says that we are saved by works (and it does!) then this means that the only kind of faith that God accepts is “the obedience of faith”! It is amazing how many in their desperate attempt to prove salvation by “grace alone through faith alone” appeal to the book of Romans to support their doctrine when Paul clearly defines the kind of faith that is necessary for salvation as the “obedience of faith.” He does this two times in the book – once at the beginning and once at the end. One of the most important principles in Bible study is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. Paul mentions the “obedience of faith” in Romans 1:5 and then again in Romans 16:25-27 where he says: “Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him (lit. “for the obedience of faith”) – to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.” Thus when Paul says that the gospel is all about the righteousness of God revealed in faith “from beginning to end” (i.e., from first to last) we now know what kind of faith he is talking about.
Many times, in order to “prove” the doctrine of “faith only” some will list all the passages that talk about salvation in terms of faith, that only mention faith. And, of course there are quite a few passages that only mention faith in their immediate context. But, what about the passages that don’t mention faith in the context of salvation? What about those passages that mention something like repentance or baptism in the context of salvation? The truth is, there are a number of passages that mention all of these in the context of salvation, but they don’t say anything about faith or belief. Why do so many ignore them, or worse, explain them away and try to say that they really don’t mean anything because we are only saved by “faith alone”?
Here is a radical thought: If we find a passage that clearly says we are saved by faith and we find a passage that clearly says we are saved by repentance and we find a passage that says we are saved in baptism, why don’t we just accept the truth of all of them and conclude that we are saved when we believe, repent and are baptized into Christ? (Why do some force a contradiction? Why do some pit one doctrine against another? Why do some make faith antithetical to baptism and grace when God never did such a thing?) Do you see how simple it really is? Do you see how complicated men make the doctrine of faith with all of their lies?
Perhaps you think it harsh to refer to “faith only” as the doctrine of demons? Well, it is James who actually suggests it. And since salvation by “faith alone” is not taught in Scripture it did not come from God. (What is more, if it did not come from God then it is “another gospel”! And, if it did not come from God then it came from men. But Paul in I Timothy 4:1-2 said that false doctrines really are demonically inspired! But, how does James suggest that “faith only” is of the devils? In actually refuting the doctrine of “salvation by faith alone” James says that its the demons who have a kind of “faith only.” They believe and all they do is “tremble.” See James 2:19. (Actually the demons have a better faith than many. At least they tremble before the Lord! Too many who claim to have faith don’t even do that.) Their “faith” leads them to nothing else. The question is, does your faith lead you to love and obey the Lord in all things? Think on these things...
the Bible clearly says that we are saved by works. But, we must make sure that we understand, not all works save. There are many “kinds” of works. The only works that save are the works that God has given us. Even faith is, in some sense, a “work”! This is clearly stated by Jesus in John 6:29. When Jesus was asked what we must do to work the works of God he replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” And, faith – if it is true faith – will produce good works. If it does not, it is not true faith! Consider I Thessalonians 1:3; II Thessalonians 1:11 cf. James 2:14-26. But, as we have said, not just any kind of “works” save! There are works of the Devil (John 8:41) and works of men (Matthew 15:8-9; Mark 7:6-9) and works of sin (Romans 7:7-25) and works of the flesh (Galatians 5:16-24) and even works of self-righteousness (Matthew 23:3, 5; Titus 3:5). There are also the works of the Law that Paul talks about in Romans 3:20,27-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Galatians 2:16; 3:2,5,10; etc. No one is ever saved by these kinds of works! But, there are also the works of God – works that God has given us by his grace and these are the works that we must “do.” Consider John 4:34; 6:27-29; 9:4 etc. Peter said, “In every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted by him.” (Acts 10:35) The “righteousness” that we are to “work” is not our own, but that found in God.
In Ephesians 2:8-10 we are told, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God – not of works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Many try and force this passage to mean that we are saved by “grace only through faith only” and yet the context of all Scripture refutes such a notion. If salvation has nothing to do with any kind of works, then, as we have seen, it has nothing to do with faith because even faith is a “work” God has given us! God has also given us the “works” of repentance and baptism as well. The kind of works that have nothing to do with our salvation are those in which we can boast! When the Lord gives us a “work” and we “do” it, we have no right to boast. It is only by grace that we have been given that work in our life. Consider Luke 17:10 – “So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” Perhaps no passage captures the beauty of grace and works better than Philippians 2:12-13 – “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Thus, even when we are baptized – and we must be baptized in order to be saved – it is “through faith in the working of God.” See Colossians 2:12. In baptism we are really not doing much of anything. It is God and his Spirit that does everything in the new birth. We are merely submitting to the will of God.
Here is another important key point: Why isn’t baptism just as much a work of God and grace as faith is? As we have seen, faith and baptism are both works of God and grace in our lives. It is all about grace! Yet, when we believe, that work of faith does not minimize grace. When we repent, that work of faith does not minimize grace. So, why should baptism (an act that is done “through faith in the working of God”) minimize grace? The truth is, it does not! Baptism is just as much a matter of grace as faith is. If not, why not? The only reason baptism is “not” all about grace and faith is because that is what men in their man-made creeds have done to it. It is not because God ever did that. If faith is a matter of pure grace, so is repentance and so is baptism into Christ for the forgiveness of sins!
Sometimes it looks like no one really believes the doctrine of “faith only.” Why? Well, because when you press them about love and even repentance being necessary for salvation they will usually admit that both are also essential. (In other words, don’t you really have to love God in order to be saved? Don’t you really have to repent of your sins in order to be saved? So, it is not just faith, it is also about loving God and it is also about repenting of your sins.) So, what about baptism? It too is just as necessary in God’s purpose and plan! Remember, on the day of Pentecost when the people asked, “What shall we do to be saved?”, Peter did not tell them, “Well, you are already saved because you have already believed.” And, he did not tell them to, “Pray the sinners prayer and accept Jesus into your heart.” No! What he told them is what he tells us: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off – as many as the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39)
Again, whenever the New Testament says that we are “saved by faith, not by works,” the “works” it is referring to are never those things that God has commanded us to do ... for he has even commanded faith, let alone repentance and baptism. The kinds of “works” that have nothing to do with our salvation are those that are based in “self-righteousness” or in “legalistic law-keeping.” (Remember, this is what Paul is dealing with in Galatians and Romans and this was the heresy of the Judaising teachers in the early church.) And, we have seen that when we do whatever the Lord asks of us, we have nothing to boast about. That men try and make “baptism into Christ and his body” a work of anything other than God’s righteousness is damnable! To say that “baptism for the forgiveness of sins and salvation” is anything other than pure grace is heresy! Anything that God gives us in salvation – whether it is faith, repentance or baptism – is grace! In John 3:21 we are told, “But he that does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be made manifest that they have been wrought (i.e., worked) in God.” This is what the “work of faith” is all about!
Finally, we need to accept that if the Bible says that we are saved by faith (and it does!) and if the Bible says that we are saved by works (and it does!) then this means that the only kind of faith that God accepts is “the obedience of faith”! It is amazing how many in their desperate attempt to prove salvation by “grace alone through faith alone” appeal to the book of Romans to support their doctrine when Paul clearly defines the kind of faith that is necessary for salvation as the “obedience of faith.” He does this two times in the book – once at the beginning and once at the end. One of the most important principles in Bible study is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. Paul mentions the “obedience of faith” in Romans 1:5 and then again in Romans 16:25-27 where he says: “Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him (lit. “for the obedience of faith”) – to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.” Thus when Paul says that the gospel is all about the righteousness of God revealed in faith “from beginning to end” (i.e., from first to last) we now know what kind of faith he is talking about.
Many times, in order to “prove” the doctrine of “faith only” some will list all the passages that talk about salvation in terms of faith, that only mention faith. And, of course there are quite a few passages that only mention faith in their immediate context. But, what about the passages that don’t mention faith in the context of salvation? What about those passages that mention something like repentance or baptism in the context of salvation? The truth is, there are a number of passages that mention all of these in the context of salvation, but they don’t say anything about faith or belief. Why do so many ignore them, or worse, explain them away and try to say that they really don’t mean anything because we are only saved by “faith alone”?
Here is a radical thought: If we find a passage that clearly says we are saved by faith and we find a passage that clearly says we are saved by repentance and we find a passage that says we are saved in baptism, why don’t we just accept the truth of all of them and conclude that we are saved when we believe, repent and are baptized into Christ? (Why do some force a contradiction? Why do some pit one doctrine against another? Why do some make faith antithetical to baptism and grace when God never did such a thing?) Do you see how simple it really is? Do you see how complicated men make the doctrine of faith with all of their lies?
Perhaps you think it harsh to refer to “faith only” as the doctrine of demons? Well, it is James who actually suggests it. And since salvation by “faith alone” is not taught in Scripture it did not come from God. (What is more, if it did not come from God then it is “another gospel”! And, if it did not come from God then it came from men. But Paul in I Timothy 4:1-2 said that false doctrines really are demonically inspired! But, how does James suggest that “faith only” is of the devils? In actually refuting the doctrine of “salvation by faith alone” James says that its the demons who have a kind of “faith only.” They believe and all they do is “tremble.” See James 2:19. (Actually the demons have a better faith than many. At least they tremble before the Lord! Too many who claim to have faith don’t even do that.) Their “faith” leads them to nothing else. The question is, does your faith lead you to love and obey the Lord in all things? Think on these things...
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: There are at least seven baptisms mentioned in Scripture. Of which do you speak of? Water? If so, I would heartily disagree. Water baptism is not a condition of salvation. Baptism into Christ? Apart from that baptism, no one can be saved. That baptism can be accomplished apart from even a drop of water.
JSM17 said:
I didn't read the rest of your post since this one sentence is wrong. If the rest of the post was based on this one sentence, it is wrong.
The Bible clearly says that we are NOT saved by works. How can you refute Ephesians 2:8-9?
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
HP: Hope this helps. :smilewinkgrin:
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
HP: Hope this helps. :smilewinkgrin:
Tom Butler
New Member
And I'll repeat an earlier scripture, Titus 3:6
?Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."
May I say again "Not by works of righteousness..."
?Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."
May I say again "Not by works of righteousness..."
I never said that the Church of Christ was a cult. I said that the International Church of Christ is a cult. There is a difference between the Church of Christ and the International Church of Christ. I was even told by several members of the CoC to stay away from the International Church of Christ. The International Church of Christ started out in Gainesville, FL, they were once part of the Church of Christ but broke away and became indep. If you guys do your research on the Int. CoC you will be surprised what you find. _ Happy Hunting
Joseph Finn,Ph.D. ( American Religious History)
Joseph Finn,Ph.D. ( American Religious History)
To JSM17
Eph 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; (9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Read this in context would ya. You will notice that I didnt go and pull one liners out of the Bible, I pulled scriptures in CONTEXT. You will see that the only one that did any work at all was Jesus verse 11 and then vs 13 plainly states that after you believed, you were SEALED.
Eph 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; (9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Read this in context would ya. You will notice that I didnt go and pull one liners out of the Bible, I pulled scriptures in CONTEXT. You will see that the only one that did any work at all was Jesus verse 11 and then vs 13 plainly states that after you believed, you were SEALED.
Salvation is conditional, even believing takes human work to incorporate, I really am not sure why this is so hard. Nowhere does it say that all works are excluded from salvation. Since the word works is a bad word to so many it gets thrown out all together.
I would still like someone to explain to me how one repents before he believes. Does God repent for you? Is repentance required for forgiveness? Does God save the sinner in an unrepentant state?
Why is it that man can read the word and believe, was that something that man did? Why give us the word if we cannot even function in accepting it, because it "merits" our salvation?
One is not saved by faith alone, mere belief only gives a man the right to become a child of God.
A side note: Heavenly Pilgrim asked me about the baptism to which I refered in my last post. I would answer that the baptism that saves is the one that God commanded to be taken to the whole world in making disciples (Matthew 28:18,19) It is the one that can be administered by man to man for the reasons that are so plainly given in scripture. It is amazing that such simple statements can be so hard for people to accept.
You know that John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sins!
Luke 3:3
3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,NKJVWe also find that those who refuse this baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins were not doing God's will.
Luke 7:29-30
29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
NKJV
I bet there are few who struggle with the concepts of what Jesus means and says in
Matt 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.NKJV
Jesus said that his blood would be shed so that our sins could be forgiven.
Then why is it so hard when Peter uses the same wording to describe Baptism:
Acts 2:38
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
Why is it later in Peter's epistle that he connects Noah being saved by water with the statement that "Baptism does now save us" I know I will be accused of not considering the context, but the context is about water and souls saved by it in Noahs day.
What about the three accounts of the great commission, have we looked at them all together and figured out which baptism Jesus refers to?
I would still like someone to explain to me how one repents before he believes. Does God repent for you? Is repentance required for forgiveness? Does God save the sinner in an unrepentant state?
Why is it that man can read the word and believe, was that something that man did? Why give us the word if we cannot even function in accepting it, because it "merits" our salvation?
One is not saved by faith alone, mere belief only gives a man the right to become a child of God.
A side note: Heavenly Pilgrim asked me about the baptism to which I refered in my last post. I would answer that the baptism that saves is the one that God commanded to be taken to the whole world in making disciples (Matthew 28:18,19) It is the one that can be administered by man to man for the reasons that are so plainly given in scripture. It is amazing that such simple statements can be so hard for people to accept.
You know that John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sins!
Luke 3:3
3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,NKJVWe also find that those who refuse this baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins were not doing God's will.
Luke 7:29-30
29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
NKJV
I bet there are few who struggle with the concepts of what Jesus means and says in
Matt 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.NKJV
Jesus said that his blood would be shed so that our sins could be forgiven.
Then why is it so hard when Peter uses the same wording to describe Baptism:
Acts 2:38
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
Why is it later in Peter's epistle that he connects Noah being saved by water with the statement that "Baptism does now save us" I know I will be accused of not considering the context, but the context is about water and souls saved by it in Noahs day.
What about the three accounts of the great commission, have we looked at them all together and figured out which baptism Jesus refers to?
Alive in Christ
New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim...
The "justification" being spoken of there is not justification before God for eternity. We are eternally secure through faith alone.
This passage in James is speaking about being justified before others. People can SEE the change that God has wrought in our lives by the new way we are living.
The passage does not start where you started (vs 22), but rather with verse 14, where it says...
The issue being adressed here is not that faith alone will or wont ensure us heaven (it does ensure us heaven) , but rather that a faith that isnt active isnt profitable and doesnt send the right witness.
:godisgood:
The "justification" being spoken of there is not justification before God for eternity. We are eternally secure through faith alone.
This passage in James is speaking about being justified before others. People can SEE the change that God has wrought in our lives by the new way we are living.
The passage does not start where you started (vs 22), but rather with verse 14, where it says...
The issue being adressed here is not that faith alone will or wont ensure us heaven (it does ensure us heaven) , but rather that a faith that isnt active isnt profitable and doesnt send the right witness.
:godisgood:
NO, SINCE HE HAD NOTHING TO REPENT OF.
Matt 3:14-17
14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
Jesus followed the laws of God, God's will was that Jesus be baptized.
But it seems that you missed the point of my last post, I was merely showing that baptism served a purpose in the forerunning of Christ and serves a like purpose today.
Tell me what you think this passage means?
Acts 22:16
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
NKJV
Logically it would seem that Paul is told by Ananias that baptism washes away sins and is considered calling upon the name of the Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
no, faith that does not work is dead. That is if faith does not produce obedience in a person his faith is useless, therefore faith in and of its self cannot save
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
If faith is not acompanied with works no matter what kind of works then faith is not alive therfore not saving.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
It would seem that Abraham was justified before Gods eyes in having obedient faith, if Abraham merely had faith but did not obey he would not have been justified before God.
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Apart from works, faith is nothing. Faith cannot be made perfect apart from works.
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
No matter how you look at this passage, no matter what you think it impies or does not imply, one thing is for sure, we are not justified by faith only. To make the passage say that it is talking about being justified before man and not God is just not true, Abraham and Rahab were righteous before God because of their faith working in obedience, if they had not worked they would not have been justified before God, that is why verse 24 is stated.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Please define what is the "faith" means?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I do not consider that Church of Christ is cult. Myself never been attend Church of Christ in my life.
Early in my Christian life, I used to believe Once Saved Always Saved(OSAS) is like as unconditional eternal secuity salvation doctrine. Now, I believe in conditional salvation, because I can easy see so many verses in Bible with warnings.
Church of Christ believes that baptism is essential or necesscary for salvation. I believe that Church of Christ is correct.
How about Mark 16:16 says,
"He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus tells us, two things that we need salvation in order- believe AND baptized. He doesn't say we can only in Jesus then be saved that's it. Christ commands us that to believe in Him also to be baptized in order to be saved.
Isn't too hard to read Mark 16:16 and understand?
Throughout in the Bible telling us that salvation is conditional by base upon our obedience.
Clearly in 2 Thess 1:7-9 says, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire take vengeance on thet that know not God, and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
This passage telling us, people will be punish cast away into everlasting fire for NOT obey the gospel of Christ.
Obivously, obey is part of conditional with reply back God's calling and the gospel too.
Therefore, Matthew 28:19=20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 1:7, these are great commission from Christ that means we must obey his command. Same with baptize, it is part of obedience.
Being to be baptize with obedience is not hard to do.
Then, why argue?
Do you agree with Christ's words of Mark 16:16?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Early in my Christian life, I used to believe Once Saved Always Saved(OSAS) is like as unconditional eternal secuity salvation doctrine. Now, I believe in conditional salvation, because I can easy see so many verses in Bible with warnings.
Church of Christ believes that baptism is essential or necesscary for salvation. I believe that Church of Christ is correct.
How about Mark 16:16 says,
"He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus tells us, two things that we need salvation in order- believe AND baptized. He doesn't say we can only in Jesus then be saved that's it. Christ commands us that to believe in Him also to be baptized in order to be saved.
Isn't too hard to read Mark 16:16 and understand?
Throughout in the Bible telling us that salvation is conditional by base upon our obedience.
Clearly in 2 Thess 1:7-9 says, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire take vengeance on thet that know not God, and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
This passage telling us, people will be punish cast away into everlasting fire for NOT obey the gospel of Christ.
Obivously, obey is part of conditional with reply back God's calling and the gospel too.
Therefore, Matthew 28:19=20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 1:7, these are great commission from Christ that means we must obey his command. Same with baptize, it is part of obedience.
Being to be baptize with obedience is not hard to do.
Then, why argue?
Do you agree with Christ's words of Mark 16:16?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
- Status