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MorganT

New Member
sj said:
Morgan, I can't help but ask, when you go back to visit your Mom, do they let you take communion?

They dont let me take communion, they expect me to take communion. In there eye's, if you have been baptized, you are to take communion, no exceptions. I know when I was growing up, I actually heard people taking about seeing people not taking communion and they went to them and asked them why they had not taken it.
 
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Ann: But "double predestination" means that He chooses the destination of people twice and that's not what happens.

HP: Possibly you misunderstand double predestination Ann. It simply means that God predestines some to be damned and some to be saved, not that He predestines people twice.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: Possibly you misunderstand double predestination Ann. It simply means that God predestines some to be damned and some to be saved, not that He predestines people twice.

Right - but how can He predestine some to hell when that's where we ALL are going without Him? That's not His choice - it's what's happening.
 

MorganT

New Member
You have to believe in Predestination because its in the bible, we cant just pick and chose what we believe

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers. (30) But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Eph 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; (4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace, (8) which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding; (9) having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, (10) for an administration of the fullness of times, to head up all things in Christ, both the things in Heaven, and the things on earth, even in Him, (11) in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will, (12) for us to be to the praise of His glory, who previously had trusted in Christ; (13) in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is the earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


Im going to explain it the way that I believe it to be.

Predestination is "Gods Knowledge" it is what he knows, he is God

Free Will is "What Mankind Has" its just that God already knows what answer we will give before we give it. We are not puppets, HE IS GOD and knows all things even before they happen. Why is that so hard to comprehend for some.
 
Ann: Right - but how can He predestine some to hell when that's where we ALL are going without Him? That's not His choice - it's what's happening.

HP: What do you mean you were going there without Him? Did He not predestine you from the beginning? Are you suggesting that God predestined you to one end but for a while you were not on God’s planned route? Who are you to act as if though you, by some choice of your own or your own will, could possibly have ever been on any other track than the one predestined by God? Are you saying that for a while you were in control of a destiny that you claim an Omnipotent God was in total control of?

Do you start to see the problem trying to hold onto a system of necessity in one hand and yet give lip service to some facsimile of choice or self-direction? They are not two sides of the same coin, and the absurdity is not the results of anything to do with an Omnipotent God’s ways being higher than ours, although His ways are indeed higher than ours. You are trying to embrace two opposing systems of thought and then lay the absurdity of the conflict at the feet of God, claiming His ways are higher than our ways as if though the absurdity belongs to God. The absurdity lies in the necessitated system you are embracing in one hand while trying to allow for freedom in the other.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: What do you mean you were going there without Him? Did He not predestine you from the beginning? Are you suggesting that God predestined you to one end but for a while you were not on God’s planned route? Who are you to act as if though you, by some choice of your own or your own will, could possibly have ever been on any other track than the one predestined by God? Are you saying that for a while you were in control of a destiny that you claim an Omnipotent God was in total control of?

Do you start to see the problem trying to hold onto a system of necessity in one hand and yet give lip service to some facsimile of choice or self-direction? They are not two sides of the same coin, and the absurdity is not the results of anything to do with an Omnipotent God’s ways being higher than ours, although His ways are indeed higher than ours. You are trying to embrace two opposing systems of thought and then lay the absurdity of the conflict at the feet of God, claiming His ways are higher than our ways as if though the absurdity belongs to God. The absurdity lies in the necessitated system you are embracing in one hand while trying to allow for freedom in the other.

Yet I cannot deny that God CHOOSES us for His children. Can we thwart God's wishes?

Here's what Spurgeon has to say about it (I mentioned liking this quote earlier) and I really find I need to agree with him. I have seen smart people on both sides of the C vs. A argument and Scripture to support both sides so how can we justify that?

I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and, I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other.

I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
 

Marcia

Active Member
DeafPosttrib said:
I do not consider that Church of Christ is cult. Myself never been attend Church of Christ in my life.

Early in my Christian life, I used to believe Once Saved Always Saved(OSAS) is like as unconditional eternal secuity salvation doctrine. Now, I believe in conditional salvation, because I can easy see so many verses in Bible with warnings.

Church of Christ believes that baptism is essential or necesscary for salvation. I believe that Church of Christ is correct.

And you call yourself a Baptist? You are the first Baptist I've ever heard of who believes this (that water baptism is essential for salvation).
 

Amy.G

New Member
annsni said:
Yet I cannot deny that God CHOOSES us for His children. Can we thwart God's wishes?
Actually God chooses us "in Christ". Those in Christ are chosen. Those who put their faith in Christ are the chosen.


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 

JSM17

New Member
Some protest the need for baptism saying…


‘I believe baptism is commanded by God but not essential for salvation. It is merely an “outward sign of a work that has already taken place within.”’



According to Romans 6:3-10 and Colossians 2:12 we are dead and unified with Jesus through baptism into His death, His burial and His resurrection:






Biblical baptism

“He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” –Mark 16:16



According to this erroneous teaching, which states: We are saved when we believe and are resurrected at that point and are then baptized as a sign of “what has already taken place".






Denominational baptism

“He who believes and is saved shall be baptized.” – Denominational tradition



We don’t bury live people. On the contrary; We bury dead ones! This teaching, when looked at closely, is NOT what the Word of God teaches about baptism in Romans 6 and Colossians 2:12. This is not a Biblical baptism. Romans 6:9-10 states Christ died ONCE and cannot die again! We are unified with Him in death, buried with Him and also raised with Him through baptism. How does all this take place? By faith.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
JSM17 said:
Some protest the need for baptism saying…

‘I believe baptism is commanded by God but not essential for salvation. It is merely an “outward sign of a work that has already taken place within.”’

According to Romans 6:3-10 and Colossians 2:12 we are dead and unified with Jesus through baptism into His death, His burial and His resurrection:

Biblical baptism

“He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” –Mark 16:16

According to this erroneous teaching, which states: We are saved when we believe and are resurrected at that point and are then baptized as a sign of “what has already taken place".

Denominational baptism

“He who believes and is saved shall be baptized.” – Denominational tradition

We don’t bury live people. On the contrary; We bury dead ones! This teaching, when looked at closely, is NOT what the Word of God teaches about baptism in Romans 6 and Colossians 2:12. This is not a Biblical baptism. Romans 6:9-10 states Christ died ONCE and cannot die again! We are unified with Him in death, buried with Him and also raised with Him through baptism. How does all this take place? By faith.
Sorry, but this sort of sophistry does not alleviate the explicit statements of Scripture.

You deny that believers will be saved without arising from baptism. Scripture never states any such thing. Nothing you quote as Scripture states that a believer who fails to be baptized faces condemnation. It does not `trump' explicit statements of Scripture.

Darron Steele said:
...

Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). Acts 16:31b says “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). If a person truly has a conviction that Jesus Christ is Lord, then s/he will immediately repent of living however s/he sees fit.
...

Confession and baptism are separate deeds done after faith. There is not one passage of Scripture that teaches that those who fail to make oral confession or fail to get baptized will be condemned.

There is, however,...
I will quote those passages again below after this quote.
Darron Steele said:
Oral confession and baptism are obligations of every capable and rightly-knowing believer. They should never be taken lightly. Responsible Christians should be very serious about new converts making confession and being baptized. New converts should feel an immense obligation to do these things if they are not mute and if they have a known opportunity to be baptized. Still, the Bible is clear -- as believers, they are assured of salvation.

I will close with Matthew 28:19-20a where Jesus Christ said
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations|. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you” (NASB|NCV).​
Per Acts 11:26, "Christians" renames “disciples” in that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB), and Greek rendered “baptize” means “completely submerge,”* so we are to “completely submerge” people who are “disciples” = Christians. If people are not Christians until after they begin to come up from baptism, then we would not "completely submerge" "disciples" and so it would be impossible to obey this passage. This would be only one Bible contradiction of many Bible contradictions if believers are not saved until after baptism.

It is best to simply accept the plain statements of Scripture: believers on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved for their faith, and assured of salvation.


______
*Stamatis, Catechetical Handbook of the Eastern Orthodox Church, page 191.
Scripture says what it says.

Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).​
It is not complicated. We are not saved due to our works. However, after we are "saved through faith," the faith that we have in Jesus Christ as Lord will motivate us to live accordingly "unto good works."

Jesus Christ forecast the same.
John 6:28-9 says “The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).​
When these people asked for a plurality of “works” to “do,” Jesus had just one -- belief on Him. In Paul's terminology, he does not classify "faith" as a work, which was a license given to him by the Lord. Still, the teaching is the same: a person who believes on Jesus Christ as Lord fulfills what the Lord prescribes for salvation.

There is yet another clear statement in Scripture about this: As Peter was preaching about Jesus Christ, he said
Acts 10:43b “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).​
You cannot teach
a) that a person can have faith on Jesus Christ as Lord, and yet
b) not be saved,
and still be `square' with these explicit statements of Scripture.
 
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JSM17

New Member
The bible teaches:Acts 2:38 baptism is for the forgiveness of sins
I teach: Acts 2:38 baptism is for the forgiveness of sins
You teach: Acts 2:38 baptism is NOT for the forgiveness of sins

The bible teaches:Mark 16:15-16 baptism is to be saved
I teach: Mark 16:15-16 baptism is to be saved
You teach: Mark 16:15-16 baptism is NOT to be saved



TBTeaches: Acts 22:16 baptism washes your sins away
ITeach: Acts 22:16 baptism washes your sins away
UTeach: Acts 22:16 baptism DOES NOT wash your sins away

TBT:1Peter 3:21 baptism saves you
IT: 1Peter 3:21 baptism saves you
UT: 1Peter 3:21 baptism DOES NOT save you

TBT: Romans 6:3-5 through baptism we rise to new life
IT: Romans 6:3-5 through baptism we rise to new life
UT: Romans 6:3-5 baptism IS NOT how we rise to new life

TBT: John 3:5 baptism is required for salvation
IT: John 3:5 baptism is required for salvation
UT: John 3:5 baptism is NOT required for salvation

TBT: Acts 8:36-39 baptism is full immersion in water
IT: Acts 8:36-39 baptism is full immersion in water
UT: Acts 8:36-39 baptism is NOT in water

TBT: Col 2:12 buried & raised with Christ in baptism
IT:Col 2:12 buried & raised with Christ in baptism
UT: Col 2:12 buried & raised with Christ WITHOUT baptism

TBT: Gal 3:26-27 clothed with Christ in baptism
IT: Gal 3:26-27 clothed with Christ in baptism
UT: Gal 3:26-27 clothed with Christ WITHOUT baptism

TBT: Ephesians 4:5 there is ONE baptism
IT: Ephesians 4:5 there is ONE baptism
UT: Ephesians 4:5 there is NOT one baptism
 

Darron Steele

New Member
JSM17 said:
The bible teaches:Acts 2:38 baptism is for the forgiveness of sins
I teach: Acts 2:38 baptism is for the forgiveness of sins
You teach: Acts 2:38 baptism is NOT for the forgiveness of sins

The bible teaches:Mark 16:15-16 baptism is to be saved
I teach: Mark 16:15-16 baptism is to be saved
You teach: Mark 16:15-16 baptism is NOT to be saved



TBTeaches: Acts 22:16 baptism washes your sins away
ITeach: Acts 22:16 baptism washes your sins away
UTeach: Acts 22:16 baptism DOES NOT wash your sins away

TBT:1Peter 3:21 baptism saves you
IT: 1Peter 3:21 baptism saves you
UT: 1Peter 3:21 baptism DOES NOT save you

TBT: Romans 6:3-5 through baptism we rise to new life
IT: Romans 6:3-5 through baptism we rise to new life
UT: Romans 6:3-5 baptism IS NOT how we rise to new life

TBT: John 3:5 baptism is required for salvation
IT: John 3:5 baptism is required for salvation
UT: John 3:5 baptism is NOT required for salvation

TBT: Acts 8:36-39 baptism is full immersion in water
IT: Acts 8:36-39 baptism is full immersion in water
UT: Acts 8:36-39 baptism is NOT in water

TBT: Col 2:12 buried & raised with Christ in baptism
IT:Col 2:12 buried & raised with Christ in baptism
UT: Col 2:12 buried & raised with Christ WITHOUT baptism

TBT: Gal 3:26-27 clothed with Christ in baptism
IT: Gal 3:26-27 clothed with Christ in baptism
UT: Gal 3:26-27 clothed with Christ WITHOUT baptism

TBT: Ephesians 4:5 there is ONE baptism
IT: Ephesians 4:5 there is ONE baptism
UT: Ephesians 4:5 there is NOT one baptism
You teach that Scripture contradicts itself.

You make no distinction between explicit statements of God's written Word and your inferences of them.

You give more weight to `inference' of passages than explicit statements of Scripture.

Explain: how is it possible to obey Matthew 28:19-20 if we baptize non-Christians?

Explain: how is it possible that Acts 10:43 explicitly states “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV) while you deny that those who "believeth on him" but are unbaptized will not receive remission of sins. How is this not a contradiction?

Making it appear that Scripture contradicts itself will not bolster your position. If an inference you make of a passage contradicts an explicit statement of Scripture, your inference is to be rejected.
 
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Marcia

Active Member
According to Romans 6:3-10 and Colossians 2:12 we are dead and unified with Jesus through baptism into His death, His burial and His resurrection:

Rom. 6 is not about being baptized to be saved, but about how baptism shows our identification with Christ and his death and resurrection. Col 2:12 is similar. We are not yet raised are we? This is a symbolic act.

John 3:5 says nothing of baptism.

The other verses you cited do not mean one must be baptized to be saved. They have been brought up and discussed on this forum before. I just do not have time for it.

You are not the first person to try to use these passages to teach that one must be water baptized to be saved. Ther are other baptisms. The saving baptism is the baptism in Christ and the Holy Spirit (regeneration) which comes at the moment of faith in Christ.
 

JSM17

New Member
Let’s start with Matthew 28:18-20 where Jesus said to His disciples, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (NKJV). There are some questions that need answering from Matthew’s account of the Great Commission. (1) Exactly what did Jesus mean when He spoke of baptizing the nations? (2) What baptism did Jesus command men to be administered? (3) Did Jesus command men to baptize with the Holy Spirit? (4) Are men capable of administering Holy Spirit baptism today?

John the Baptizer said “He [Jesus;jsm] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire”. John indeed baptized with water, but he said that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11). Thus no one has administered the Holy Spirit baptism whether in the first century or today. Then to what baptism does Matthew 28:19 refer? It is apparent that Matthew 28 referred to a baptism that men are commanded to administer. Water baptism is the only possibility. Disciples are to go into the world and baptize the nations. Why is it so important to establish that Jesus referred to water baptism in the Great Commission? You will see as we move ahead to our next passage

Let us focus on the issue of parallel verses to Matthew 28:18-20. Many have not considered passages that explain other passages. These are called “synoptic” accounts. The American Heritage Dictionary defines synoptic as that which relates to the same account but from a different view. The first of these synoptic accounts is found in the Gospel of Mark. If Matthew 28:19 refers to water baptism then Mark 16:15, 16, a parallel account of the Great Commission, also refers to water baptism. Mark records Jesus saying: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:15, 16 (NKJV). Both Matthew and Mark reference water baptism.

Jesus commands that disciples baptize-but why? Primarily Matthew 28:19-20 affirms disciples are made by baptism. In Mark’s Gospel where does Jesus place baptism? Mark declares that Jesus placed water baptism between a candidate’s belief (faith) and his salvation!

Luke’s account of the Great Commission states that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached starting in Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). As one looks at and compares all three accounts of the Great Commission he observes that all of the details outlined by Jesus of the Great Commission were preached for the first time by the Apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter two. When those who had crucified Christ were pierced to the heart (i.e. believed in Jesus and were convicted) they asked, “What shall we do?” (I.e. how can we become right with God?). Peter followed exactly what our Lord said to a “T”. Peter said: "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 (NKJV)

After reflecting on the three Gospel accounts of the Great Commission, the question remains: Is water baptism merely a sign of salvation or is it for the purpose of receiving salvation? Consider the following: Jesus clearly states that (1) one becomes a disciple when he is baptized (Matthew 28:18, 19); (2) The administration of water baptism is for the purpose of becoming saved (Mark 16:15, 16); and (3) while carrying out the Great Commission, disciples are to proclaim faith, obedience, and repentance to the world (Luke 24:47).

Jesus discussed these same issues with Nicodemus (John 3:5). To be born of water and Spirit entails everything necessary, for the purpose of becoming Jesus’ disciple. Many denominational people dismiss water as necessary to salvation, but they ignore what Jesus said about “Water”.

Peter writes of the salvation of Noah and his family by/through water. He clearly states that baptism for us today is the antitype of Noah’s salvation through water in his own day: “20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 3:20, 21; NKJV)

In summary all three synoptic accounts of the Great Commission emphasize that belief, repentance, and water baptism all lead to the remission of past sins. So the advancing of any notion that water baptism is only a sign of salvation, demonstrates a lack of faith in what Jesus empathetically declared, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16; NASB). Clearly baptism is not a secondary issue but is as essential as belief, repentance, confession, and perseverance.

Have you decided that baptism is non-essential? For what reason were you baptized? Preconceived notions keep people from seeing God’s truth and obedience to Him. Maintaining an open mind and heart towards God’s word helps one see what God expects of him. Salvation is not by baptism or water alone. It is God who saves us when we obey the things He has required us to do. This is obedience to the Gospel (2 Thess. 1:8). Again, this is obedience to the Great Commission. Mark’s and Luke’s account of the Great Commission emphasize what Matthew does in his. There are no non-essential or secondary issues in salvation.

When Jesus confronted Saul, who became the Apostle Paul, the Lord told him to wait in the city of Damascus and there Saul would be told what he must do. Here is what Jesus commanded Ananias to tell Saul: “15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16; NKJV)
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JSM17 said:
Let’s start with Matthew 28:18-20 where Jesus said to His disciples, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (NKJV).

#1 - Make disciples
#2 - Baptize
#3 - Teaching them

So, if this verse says that you cannot be saved without being baptized, then it also means that you cannot be saved without being taught to observe everything Jesus taught. Is this correct?
 

Darron Steele

New Member
JSM17 said:
Let’s start with Matthew 28:18-20 where Jesus said to His disciples, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (NKJV). There are some questions that need answering from Matthew’s account of the Great Commission. (1) Exactly what did Jesus mean when He spoke of baptizing the nations? (2) What baptism did Jesus command men to be administered? (3) Did Jesus command men to baptize with the Holy Spirit? (4) Are men capable of administering Holy Spirit baptism today?
I realize that it is probably convenient to lump us all together, but that will not work.

I am the one who brought up Matthew 28:19-20. I have not suggested that "baptize them" (NCV) is anything other than water baptism.

Therefore, your comments that go on as if I am suggesting such will not be considered. I suggest you try to read each poster's posts and address us as individuals, rather than `the denominationalists on this board.'

...
Let us focus on the issue of parallel verses to Matthew 28:18-20. Many have not considered passages that explain other passages. These are called “synoptic” accounts. The American Heritage Dictionary defines synoptic as that which relates to the same account but from a different view. The first of these synoptic accounts is found in the Gospel of Mark. If Matthew 28:19 refers to water baptism then Mark 16:15, 16, a parallel account of the Great Commission, also refers to water baptism. Mark records Jesus saying: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:15, 16 (NKJV). Both Matthew and Mark reference water baptism.

Jesus commands that disciples baptize-but why? Primarily Matthew 28:19-20 affirms disciples are made by baptism. ...
Actually, quite the contrary!

How much more clear can it be:
Darron Steele said:
Matthew 28:19-20a where Jesus Christ said
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations|. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you” (NASB|NCV).​
Per Acts 11:26, "Christians" renames “disciples” in that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB), and Greek rendered “baptize” means “completely submerge,”* so we are to “completely submerge” people who are “disciples” = Christians. If people are not Christians until after they begin to come up from baptism, then we would not "completely submerge" "disciples" and so it would be impossible to obey this passage. This would be only one Bible contradiction of many Bible contradictions if believers are not saved until after baptism.

It is best to simply accept the plain statements of Scripture: believers on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved for their faith, and assured of salvation.


______
*Stamatis, Catechetical Handbook of the Eastern Orthodox Church, page 191.
Now, if no one is a disciple = Christian until after s/he arises from baptism, then we would not "baptize" = "completely submerge" disciples but non-disciples.

You can point to a whole bunch of other passages in hopes that focusing on them will sidestep this problem, but the problem still exists. It is not possible to obey this passage if no one is a Christian during baptism.

What I am most interested in is an explanation of how your view is not totally contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10 and Acts 10:43. I will repeat, and add some color for emphasis:
Darron Steele said:
Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).​
It is not complicated. We are not saved due to our works. However, after we are "saved through faith," the faith that we have in Jesus Christ as Lord will motivate us to live accordingly "unto good works."
...

There is yet another clear statement in Scripture about this: As Peter was preaching about Jesus Christ, he said
Acts 10:43b “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).​
You cannot teach
a) that a person can have faith on Jesus Christ as Lord, and yet
b) not be saved,
and still be `square' with these explicit statements of Scripture.
If there is a way for you to
1) reconcile the contradiction with these verses your position requires, and
2) do so WHILE DEALING DIRECTLY WITH THESE PASSAGES and
3) NOT trying to focus our attention away from these passages,
then you need to show it. Otherwise, it will be safe to assume that the direct contradiction between your teaching and Scripture's teaching exists.
 
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JSM17

New Member
If believing alone in Christ saves someone then why are there passages that suggest that some believe yet were not saved?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
JSM17 said:
If believing alone in Christ saves someone then why are there passages that suggest that some believe yet were not saved?
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 

Marcia

Active Member
JSM17 said:
If believing alone in Christ saves someone then why are there passages that suggest that some believe yet were not saved?

Which passages? A true belief is saving faith, not just acknowledging Jesus as existing.
 

JSM17

New Member
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


This passage actually affirms that one is not saved by faith alone or belief alone, one must confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus.


Luke 8:12-13

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
NKJV


Jesus said that those by the wayside did not believe and were not saved, whereas those on the rock believed for awhile and then fell away.
 
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