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You don't see the word alone.JSM17 said:Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
If one is saved by faith alone, they they cannot be saved by grace. This passage says that grace saves us as well as "THE FAITH", this faith cannot be subjective because it is not of yourselves! Some like to say that the grace is God's but the faith is man's, yet the passage does not make that distinction. many assume it is their faith refered to in this passage. I contend that this is objective faith not referring to yours but "the faith" which has the power to save through God's grace.
And still, I do not see the word's "alone" or "only" do you?
Salvation is by faith and faith alone. The passage clearly teaches it.Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
"For by grace"--This refers to the grace of God, specifically the grace that Christ showed to us on the cross when he paid the penalty for our sins. It is nothing that we do; nothing that we merit. In that way we are saved by grace, God's grace--the work of Christ on the cross. This has nothing to do with us; everything to do with what Christ has done for us. It points to the sacrifice of Christ.
"are ye saved through faith" This is how a man is saved. He is saved by putting his faith in Christ, specifically the saving work of Christ, which by grace, Christ died for us. He didn't have to die for our sins. We don't deserve it. It was by grace that he died for our sins. Look carefully at what it says in Romans 11:6:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Grace and works and incompatible. If salvation is by the grace of God, then it is not of works. There can be no works involved if salvation is by grace. Works nullify salvation by grace. If it is by works, then grace is no longer grace. The teaching is clear.
It is "not of yourself" There is nothing you can do to merit salvation. Baptism does not merit salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation. Baptism is something you do; something man does. Salvation is "not of yourself." It excludes baptism and all other works of man, and everything else a man may even think of doing. There is nothing that man can do to merit salvation. Salvation is by faith and faith alone in the shed blood of Christ which comes to us by the grace of God.
"It is the gift of God" A gift cannot be earned. A gift is received. It is received without payment. Works are a type of payment. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn a gift. You don't pay for it through baptism, confirmation, going to church, or any other church rite. It is a gift, full and free, given freely, because of the grace of God, to be accepted by faith and faith alone.
"It is not of works" This is clearly stated. Baptism is ruled out completely for baptism is a work. It is done by man, and received by man. Jesus does not come down in the flesh and baptize anyone. It is a work of man. The only thing man must do is believe (or have faith). It is God's grace that provides salvation. Man must simply believe (have faith).
"lest any man should boast" Think of it. Jesus paid it all. He claimed "It is finished." But when the COC people get to heaven (if they do), they will jump around boasting, saying: Jesus paid 90% and I paid the other 10% through my works, through my baptism. Jesus did not pay it all; I had to pay some of that salvation myself. "Lest any man should boast." You cannot boast in your salvation. Yet that is what you claim by insisting that salvation is part of your salvation. You take away from the atoning work of Christ on the cross. You say that Christ did not pay the full penalty of your sin; that you paid part of that penalty by being baptized, by doing works.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone. It is a gift of God, to be received by faith.
It is His grace that provided it.
There is no other way, no other message.
JSM17 said:Faith alone does not save.
Repentance leads to salvation. 2 Cor. 7:10
Repentance and faith are not the same thing. There is no scripture!
Faith must preceed repentance. Its completly nonlogical to think that repentance comes before faith unless you were a Jew standing before John the Baptist and where a believing Jew (one who was God chosen people, God fearing) who needed to repent and believe on the Messiah, to whom John was preparing the way. Otherwise most of us as Gentiles after the blood shedd on Calvary must come to faith through the word and repent.
Repentance is never just a mental thought, it always appropriates action or else it is not repentance (Matt 21:28-32)
If someone has an active obedient living faith (Heb. 11) then he will appropriate works that God commands such as to repent, repentance is granted by God (Through the Gospel), yet are we not to bear fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8) which lead to eternal life (Acts11:18)?
If repentance is required for salvation then salvation is not by faith only!If repentance is not required for salvation then you have someone saved with out regret, without Godly sorrow and without change, turning away from himself and turning towards God
Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17). Then that faith leads to one understanding their place (sinner) before God (The Gospel is the power of God to save) and having Godly sorrow which leads to repentance which leads to salvation. If repentance LEADS TO salvation then it is something that we do and something that happens before salvation occurs.
Faith in and of itself or alone or only gives the right for that person to become a child of God (John 1:12)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
NKJV
Yes I understand that it is by God's will and power that we are saved, I do not affirm meritous works salvation, not when I am obeying what God has told me what to do, and when I do them I am still unworthy and still a sinner, yet saved by the grace of God through His Son, through His blood. But it is not and never has been apart from faith and obedience.
It certainly has never been by faith alone.
Does God exclude ALL works from salvation by way of Ephesians 2:8, no I do not thinks so, I believe the word "all" is not there, it is works of merit, human boasting that are excluded. Again I believe that faith is a work that is command by God.
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
HP: Ann, with all due respect, you are presenting a view foreign to the Word of God. Repentance is not something that happens as a natural result subsequent to salvation, but rather is a requirement of receiving salvation. It involves an act of the will, not for where we were going but for the sin we have committed. Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Note the word 'that.' It does not say that you repent because your sins have been blotted out, but rather repent 'that' your sins may be blotted out.Ann: I'm sorry JSM but you are arguing against Scripture. You are ignoring the clear teaching that is in God's Word about how one is saved. Repentance is to change our minds - even God repented many times in the Old Testament. When we are called - when God opens our hearts to His Word and we are saved by faith, we are repenting of where we were going and now are following God. But it's not a work at all. It is a response to the salvation that we are given.
HP: That again might be seen to imply a false notion of sanctification. You can no more merit your sanctification by works anymore than you can merit your salvation by works. One cannot grow into sanctification any more than one can grow into salvation. One must enter both states by faith, not works, when works are being thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of.’ANN: works ARE important for sanctification (becoming more Christ-like) but not for justification.
Ann: There is NOTHING we can do that merits our justification - it is all on God.
Ann: But if we are true believers, we will absolutely desire to do good works and glorify our Father in heaven. But it is not those works that save us.
As for your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8, can you show me even one scholar, one commentary, one study note on that passage that says what you said? I don't think you can find that thought even in a cult Bible. If you read English, there is no way to come up with any understanding than what it says. Let's not just prooftext the passage but see the entire thing in context:
JSM17 said:In regards to faith within the context not being of ourselves, which means that it is not subjective within the context, there are many manuscripts that include the definite article which makes faith in this passage "The faith" not refering to our own personal faith but faith in an objective way. Besides the context demands that grace through faith is not of ourselves, so why do people want to make it subjective.
8 Stephens 1550 Textus receptus
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistew V kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron
Scrivener 1894 Tex. Rec.
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistew V kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron
Byzantine Majority
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistew V kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron
The point is this, because so manner believe salvation is by faith alone they like to use this text as their proof text, yet the context does not say it is your faith, that is assumed on their part. And because I do not trust translational bais which we see all the time because of what man wants and not what God intended, I like to study and investigate what the manuscripts say. They use the same manuscripts as everyone else, so why do they remove certain words from their translations if the words are in the majority text?
Beyond that even if the definite article had been placed in the translations as it should there would still be people advocating a doctrines of the devil.
I do not deny faith is required for salvation, I affirm it, for it is the foundtion which all other obedience stems from. But before I could even believe "THE FAITH" was manifested here on earth so man could believe. The Gospel , the faith, The faith of Christ is the power to save to those who believe. Romans 1:16
Rom 6:16-18
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
NKJV
I have been set free from sin by obeying the form of doctrine to which delivered to me, the Gospel, the faith!
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Ann, with all due respect, you are presenting a view foreign to the Word of God. Repentance is not something that happens as a natural result subsequent to salvation, but rather is a requirement of receiving salvation. It involves an act of the will, not for where we were going but for the sin we have committed. Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Note the word 'that.' It does not say that you repent because your sins have been blotted out, but rather repent 'that' your sins may be blotted out.
Works are thought of in two senses. Works can be thought of in the sense of being meritorious and works can be thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.’ Certainly nothing we could do could ever be thought of as meritorious in receiving salvation. Still the same, there are some things God requires man to do that ‘without which’ no one shall be saved. Repentance is one of those things. Repentance is indeed a work in that it requires a voluntary act of the will, but again it is not a work in the sense of meriting a pardon because of it. Repentance is indeed a condition God has set forth in order to be saved, not something that merits a pardon in any shape or fashion. We cannot ‘work’ to merit a pardon, but neither will any be saved apart from fulfilling the conditions of salvation God has set forth for man to fulfill.
HP: That again might be seen to imply a false notion of sanctification. You can no more merit your sanctification by works anymore than you can merit your salvation by works. One cannot grow into sanctification any more than one can grow into salvation. One must enter both states by faith, not works, when works are being thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of.’
[/quote]HP: I do not know what you mean by ‘absolutely desire to do good works.” If there is anything we do that is good in the eyes of God, man’s will is involved. Man’s will is involved in works both antecedent to salvation as well as works done subsequent to salvation. No works man does will ever merit ones salvation or pardon from sin, nor ones standing before God once he has sinned. No work by man can save him, but man will not be saved apart from his will being active in repentance,faith, and obedience.
Ann, again you need to understand that works are indeed thought of in two senses, i.e. meritorious works, (works thought of in the sense of that for the sake of) and works thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ which is the sense of all works performed by man that are required of man by God for salvation. Nothing man can do period will ever merit his pardon from sin, but there are some things God requires of man, 'without which' no salvation will be granted, repentance being one of them.
Scripture puts repentance and faith together as different aspects of the one act of coming to Christ for salvation. It is not that a person first turns from sin and next trusts in Christ, or first trusts in Christ and then turns from sin, but rather that both occur at the same time. When we turn to Christ for salvation from our sinc, we are simultaneously turning away from the sins that we are asking Christ to save us from. If that were not true our turning to Christ for salvation from sin could hardly be a genuine turning to him or trusting in him.
The fact that repentance and faith are simply two different sides of the same coin, or two different aspects of the one event of conversion...
HP: Possibly I should have said, repentance is not something that happens at the same time as salvation, or concurrent with salvation, but must proceed salvation. Repentance is something God calls upon man to do in order to be saved. Salvation is of the Lord. It is something God does entirely on His own according to His own paln. Repentance is a condition that God calls upon man to fulfill in order to receive salvation. God calls upon all men everywhere to repent, but not all will be saved, for not all will repent. Repentance requires an act of the will on man’s part that even God does not bring to pass. Man is the first cause of his repentance, God is the first cause of his salvation. God does not cause nor will God repent for man. Man cannot cause nor can he save himself. Both God and man are first causes in aspects of salvation. Man is the first cause in fulfilling the condition of repentance, and God is the first cause of the plan and granting salvation. First man fulfills the condition and then God saves the man.Ann: I didn't say that it is subesquent to salvation but happens at the time of salvation.
HP: Simply not true. Works are thought of in two senses as I pointed out. I have given the illustration of the man in prison on several occasions. I believe the illustration clearly shows that there are indeed works that one must exhibit in order to receive a pardon, yet none of them in any way merits ones pardon. The distinction I am making is not hard to understand nor hidden from the purview of any mind seeking truth. No man can merit a pardon based on works, yet there are works one must do, without which a pardon will never be received if the one granting the pardon is just.Ann: If we cannot be saved without us doing it,(repentance) then it's a work that will gain us salvation.
Ann: …But we cannot turn to the Lord unless we are drawn to Him by the father. Our repentance is our response in turning to Him. Remember, God Himself repented - so it does not mean to turn from sin since God can't turn from sin. It's a turning from the direction we were going. We cannot have faith in Christ yet still be a slave to sin.
HP: Where do you get that? Not from Scripture. We are commanded to be perfect, even as our heavenly Father is perfect. Is God a taskmaster, or one that makes promises He cannot or will not keep? 1Co 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”Ann: We cannot become perfect like Christ no matter what we do but our works are our part in becoming more Christ-like.
HP: There is a work, yes fruit, that man must do prior to salvation in order to be saved. John the Baptist clearly recognized that to be true. “O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:” Yes, even vipers are called upon to exhibit this fruit in order to be saved.Ann: But those who are saved are ones who have fruit - who have works - have the desire to do those works.
HP: It is required for man first to repent Ann. That must happen antecedent to any belief that is found to save.Ann: What is required of man for salvation other than to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and to have Him as the object of our faith?
Ann: Wayne Grudem says in Systematic Theology:
Question: "What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?"
Answer: Many understand the term “repentance” to mean “turning from sin.” This is not the Biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word “repent” means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” The full Biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.
What, then, is the connection between repentance and salvation? The Book of Acts seems to especially focus on repentance in regards to salvation (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). To repent, in relation to salvation, is to change your mind in regards to Jesus Christ. In Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2), he concludes with a call for the people to repent (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Peter is calling the people who rejected Jesus (Acts 2:36) to change their minds about Him, to recognize that He is indeed “Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36). Peter is calling the people to change their minds from rejection of Christ as the Messiah, to faith in Him as both Messiah and Savior.
Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection, or repentance from ignorance or disinterest – it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ, to faith in Christ.
It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Him (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives – it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God's drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).
While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is not the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ.
© Copyright 2002-2009 Got Questions Ministries.
HP: Someone else saying what you are stating has little to no weight in a debate. Show forth clear evidence from Scripture, matters of fact, truths of immutable justice or first truths of reason to support your position.Ann: Maybe this will help - someone else stating what I'm stating:
"HP: I do not know what you mean by ‘absolutely desire to do good works.”"
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new"
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Someone else saying what you are stating has little to no weight in a debate. Show forth clear evidence from Scripture, matters of fact, truths of immutable justice or first truths of reason to support your position.
This article defies the Scriptures by stating that repentance is not a turning from sin but rather a changing of ones mind concerning Jesus Christ. That is an idea completely foreign to Scripture. “Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” That is the Scriptural admonition and reason we are estranged from God.
The false notion that the damning sin is the rejection of Christ is simply not found in Scripture. Many will be damned to hell that have never heard of the name of Christ nor had the opportunity to hear His name. Romans tells us that regardless, they will stand accountable for that which they did know and their refusal to obey their own conscience, NOT for the rejection of a Savior they had not heard of.
Alive in Christ said:HP...
When a person is justified through faith alone...the only way to BE justified...a new creature comes into existence.
The new born child of God does not "have" to do things to please God. Rather, he wants to do things that please God. For the rest of his or her life, they will be living with the desire to "put on" things that please God, and to "put off" things that do not please God.
Its Gods doing, and it follows justification. It has (((zero))) part in attaining justification.
The only "repenting" required is actually not really repenting at all. Its simply to embrace Christ, bringing nothing with that but faith in His promise to secure heaven for them.
:godisgood:
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
The false notion that the damning sin is the rejection of Christ is simply not found in Scripture. Many will be damned to hell that have never heard of the name of Christ nor had the opportunity to hear His name. Romans tells us that regardless, they will stand accountable for that which they did know and their refusal to obey their own conscience, NOT for the rejection of a Savior they had not heard of.
Ann: If repentance is turning from sin, why did God repent?
"HP:This article defies the Scriptures by stating that repentance is not a turning from sin but rather a changing of ones mind concerning Jesus Christ."
"In that day, you will know that the I am in the Father, the Father is in me, and I am in you."
"That is an idea completely foreign to Scripture.
"Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” That is the Scriptural admonition and reason we are estranged from God."
"The false notion that the damning sin is the rejection of Christ is simply not found in Scripture."
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, though he die, he shall live"
And this is the testimony, that God given us eternal life. And this life is in the Son. He who has the Son, has the life. He who does not have the Son, does not have the Life"
Many will be damned to hell that have never heard of the name of Christ nor had the opportunity to hear His name."
"Romans tells us that regardless, they will stand accountable for that which they did know and their refusal to obey their own conscience, NOT for the rejection of a Savior they had not heard of."
(speaking of John the Baptist) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness to that Light. That was the true Light, whuch gives Light to every man that comes into the world"
Even if it said "For by grace you have been saved through your faith" (which I assume is your argument), it still doesn't say what you say it says.
HP: Could you point to the verse that states that we are saved by faith alone? I have not read that one.AIC: When a person is justified through faith alone...the only way to BE justified...a new creature comes into existence.
AIC: The new born child of God does not "have" to do things to please God. Rather, he wants to do things that please God.
HP:That is indeed what we are suppose to do if we desire to remain in Christ, but you are acting as if though in reality it does not matter what we do and that obedience is not necessary to please God. Tell me where I am misunderstanding you. Did not you say AIC: “The new born child of God does not "have" to do things to please God.” Your following remark of “AIC: Rather, he wants to do things that please God” adds little to the nonsense of your first remark.AIG: For the rest of his or her life, they will be living with the desire to "put on" things that please God, and to "put off" things that do not please God.
AIC: Its Gods doing, and it follows justification. It has (((zero))) part in attaining justification.
AIC: The only "repenting" required is actually not really repenting at all.
AIC: Its simply to embrace Christ, bringing nothing with that but faith in His promise to secure heaven for them.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: Could you point to the verse that states that we are saved by faith alone? I have not read that one.