church of Christ

[JSM17]

I am curious to know how one comes to be saved? I understand that many of you believe it is by faith alone, but how does that happen? As many would state we are wicked, vile , beings from birth who cannot come to God and cannot choose to do so, then how is a man brought to faith if faith is something that God does for you, so to speak?

Is a man saved before he believes if God has to do something so that he understands what he is believing?

At what point does man have any choice in conversion?

Does God repent for us, does he "change" our minds so that we believe, what happens?

What part does the preaching of God's word have in conversion?

If someone preaches the gospel to me or any other sinner, does he have to hope that something happens or can he decide to obey God?

If all our hearts are blackened and unable to obey God without God operating on the heart then is God making us believe.

How much volition has God given man, is there any?

According to many John 6:29 refers to faith being a work of God and not man; then is God believing for us?

I do not deny the power of God to do certain things, but how far do we go with this?

When does repentance happen? Many say at the exact time faith happens. What scripture shows this?

I would like to know what scripture tells us that repentance is God's work and not our own. If repentance comes before faith then you have a saved unrepentant person. If it comes after faith then you have another condition of salvation, which would make salvation not by faith alone, besides repentance and faith are not the exact same thing no matter when they happen, so how can one be saved by something alone if the Lord said there were these other things required, such as confession with the mouth and baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Is salvation conditional?

 

[DHK]

I am curious to know how one comes to be saved? I understand that many of you believe it is by faith alone, but how does that happen? As many would state we are wicked, vile , beings from birth who cannot come to God and cannot choose to do so, then how is a man brought to faith if faith is something that God does for you, so to speak?

Faith, though not a work, is something you do. You put your faith in Christ, even as a small child puts his complete trust and faith in his parents for protection and provision. Their faith is unwavering. So must one who comes to Christ. It is the confidence that Christ will indeed grant forgiveness to the sinner based on the work of Christ on the cross. Faith is that child like confidence in God, that God will do what He has promised to do.

 

[JSM17]

Faith, though not a work, is something you do.

How can this be? Even Jesus showed that faith is something seen. Mark 2:5
5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, " Son, your sins are forgiven."
NASU

I agree that faith is something we do. John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
NASU

Just to clarify this time the idea that is being shown by John: The people ask "what shall WE do", this question is not intented for Jesus to tell them what God does , but they can do.

So the "WE" may "WORK" the works of GOD, looks to me like they want to know how to do some work, what kind of work, the works of GOD. Does God want us to work? Is this work before saving faith?

What kind of work does God want us to do? We know that it will be works that we could not boast of! Ephesians 2:8

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
NASU

When Jesus said "This is the work of God," He does not mean that God does this work for you, the verse says "that YOU believe in Him whom He has sent"

Now according to many that I have read on this forum, this belief here does not really define whether or not it is real true feiht that the Lord is talking about, since we have verses of people that believed yet were not saved.

You put your faith in Christ

So we have faith to put in Christ before we have Christ? What passage does it say that we put our faith in Jesus for salvation?

So must one who comes to Christ.

If we are dead from birth because of Adams sin, then how does one COME to Christ if he is dead?

It is the confidence that Christ will indeed grant forgiveness to the sinner based on the work of Christ on the cross.

What passage is this statement from? I thought confidence that Christ will indeed grant forgiveness to the sinner was faith?

My original question was how do they come to this faith? Does God work something in you so that you can believe?

Is that "something" include repentance and confession and baptism since the word of God says that these things also save us, or lead to salvation?

 

[Darron Steele]

I am curious to know how one comes to be saved? I understand that many of you believe it is by faith alone, but how does that happen? As many would state we are wicked, vile , beings from birth who cannot come to God and cannot choose to do so, then how is a man brought to faith if faith is something that God does for you, so to speak?

Is a man saved before he believes if God has to do something so that he understands what he is believing?

At what point does man have any choice in conversion?

Does God repent for us, does he "change" our minds so that we believe, what happens?

What part does the preaching of God's word have in conversion?

If someone preaches the gospel to me or any other sinner, does he have to hope that something happens or can he decide to obey God?

If all our hearts are blackened and unable to obey God without God operating on the heart then is God making us believe.

How much volition has God given man, is there any?

According to many John 6:29 refers to faith being a work of God and not man; then is God believing for us?

I do not deny the power of God to do certain things, but how far do we go with this?

When does repentance happen? Many say at the exact time faith happens. What scripture shows this?...

I do not know everything there is to know about God's plan of salvation. I believe that He told us everything we NEED to know about how to be saved in His written Word.

I recognize your `questions' to be rhetorical. Well, if you will not accept His plan because it does not make sense to you, I guess you can bear the penalty. If you really have refused His plan due to obstinacy, perhaps He will entertain questions before He sends you to an undesirable destination as a rebel against Him. Hopefully, your apparent non-acceptance of His plan, exactly as is, simply is due to mistake, which God's grace covers in believers.

Scripture allows no sharp distinction between repentance and faith. I realize that you are urgently trying to make such a distinction, as your argument apparently depends on it. Nonetheless, neither common sense nor Scripture allows that.

Acts 16:31 has “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). When a person has a "conviction" that Jesus Christ is Lord, s/he will immediately repent of living wrongly.

• In Acts 2, the Jews that Peter preached at did assent that Jesus Christ was Lord, and they asked Peter what they should do. In Acts 2:38 he told them "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA); he told them to repent for the remission of their sins, and to be baptized. Evidently, they had not yet repented.

• We go to Mark 1:15 “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (KJV). Here, repentance is placed before believing the Gospel.

The implication of these two is evident: the two cannot be separated. In some places of Scripture, repentance follows assent that Jesus Christ is Lord; in at least one place of Scripture, repentance precedes faith. Faith and repentance cannot be separated.

Now, it was great of you to point us to John 6:28-9 again, but the whole passage does not help your position at all:

“The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).​

The people sought plural “works” -- as you do -- and Jesus corrected that: to fulfill what God wants, the one thing we have to do is believe on Jesus Christ as Lord.

Under permission allowed Paul when transcribing Scripture, Paul distinguished between faith and works as Ephesians 2:8-10 was written:

“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For | in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).​

I realize that you like to muse on and on about why this cannot be the case -- but it does not change what this passage says. Your `musings' do not matter: the Bible teaches what you deny. You insist that a person must be saved by plural "works," but this passage explicitly states the negation. What the Bible teaches, goes.

 

[steaver]

JSM17;
I am curious to know how one comes to be saved? I understand that many of you believe it is by faith alone, but how does that happen?

Rom 10:17So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Tts 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Act 16:31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

How can this be? Even Jesus showed that faith is something seen. Mark 2:5
5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, " Son, your sins are forgiven."
NASU

I agree that faith is something we do. John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
NASU

Just to clarify this time the idea that is being shown by John: The people ask "what shall WE do", this question is not intented for Jesus to tell them what God does , but they can do.

So the "WE" may "WORK" the works of GOD, looks to me like they want to know how to do some work, what kind of work, the works of GOD. Does God want us to work? Is this work before saving faith?

What kind of work does God want us to do? We know that it will be works that we could not boast of! Ephesians 2:8

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
NASU

When Jesus said "This is the work of God," He does not mean that God does this work for you, the verse says "that YOU believe in Him whom He has sent"

If you understand it, this is one of the best passages on faith and works.
Salvation is not of works, and that is exactly what Christ was teaching them.
They came to him wanting to know what they could do.
Of course they could do nothing. The only thing that one can do is believe. Believing is not a work. What Jesus is doing is making a play on words.
"This is the work of God--that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Technically belief or faith is not a work. Jesus calls it a work here to relate back to their question of works. It is the only thing that they can "do". They can believe; have faith, trust. That is not working: sweeping the floor, getting baptized, getting confirmed, joining a church... Those are things that man actually does. Putting your confidence in someone is not something you can do with your hands or feet. It is not an action. It is believing. Believing is not a work.
Jesus was making a play on words. What must I DO? This DO. Believe.

Now according to many that I have read on this forum, this belief here does not really define whether or not it is real true feiht that the Lord is talking about, since we have verses of people that believed yet were not saved.

Which verses are those?
There is the simple promise of: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Either you have believed or you haven't.

So we have faith to put in Christ before we have Christ? What passage does it say that we put our faith in Jesus for salvation?

Acts 16:31; John 3:16,17,18,36; John 5:24; 1John 5:11,12,13; John 1:12; Acts 10:43

If we are dead from birth because of Adams sin, then how does one COME to Christ if he is dead?

It is the Holy Spirit's work that convicts and awakens the conscious of his sin and need of Christ. Christ makes one alive. We are made alive in Christ.

Ephesians 2:1 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, (WEB)
--They were once dead; they are now alive.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

What passage is this statement from? I thought confidence that Christ will indeed grant forgiveness to the sinner was faith?

It is in all the passages I quoted to you above. Confidence is just another word for faith. Faith always has an object. The object of our faith is Christ. It is in whom we must believe or put our confidence.
In John 19:30 Jesus said: "It is finished."
Do we have the faith or confidence that what Jesus said is true--the work of salvation is finished; there is nothing more that we can do. Jesus paid it all.

My original question was how do they come to this faith? Does God work something in you so that you can believe?

That is the work of the Holy Spirit:

John 16:7-11 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Is that "something" include repentance and confession and baptism since the word of God says that these things also save us, or lead to salvation?

No. Repentance is the flip side of faith. True faith includes repentance. It falls under the umbrella of faith. If I believe in Christ my style of living will change.
The word "repentance" simply means "a change of mind." It is a change of mind in respect to the authority of God. Once I was in rebellion to God's authority. Now I have put my faith in Christ, and now I am in submission to His authority. Thus I have repented because of my faith. It is the flip side of faith, one might say.

Confession is another why of expressing faith. A person who has believed will not be ashamed and will confess that Christ is Lord. It is not a requirement of salvation, but it will follow.
Baptism, as indicated in the Great Commission, and many other Scriptures is not a requirement for salvation but is the first step of obedience after salvation. These may be important things but are not requirements for salvation. The only requirement for salvation is faith. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. We are saved by faith and faith alone.

 

[Marcia]

GE:
You forgot another condition of 'cog' for 'salvation', 'Thou shalt not believe in Jesus Christ Lord and God'. Or do I confuse two denominations? Is 'COG' not the same as 'COC'? If in SA, you say, 'Church of Christ' it's automatically 'of latter day saints'. They, just like 'Churches of God' (with or without 'Seventh Day') in SA it's automatically Arians, Marcionites, 'monotheists', 'unitarians' ---- what's the difs?

The COG (Church of God) is not the same as the COC (Church of Christ).

They are not unitarians.

 

[JSM17]

2 Cor 7:10

10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NKJV

Repentance is "TO" salvation" therefore repentance is a condition of salvation, which is something that Paul tells us is produced when we have godly sorrow.

NT:1519

eis (ice); a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.

John the baptist indicated that repentance brings forth fruit of it.
Luke 3:8-14

8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

10 So the people asked him, saying,"What shall we do then?"

11 He answered and said to them,"He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."

12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?"

13 And he said to them,"Collect no more than what is appointed for you."

14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
NKJV

When the Jewish Christians heard what happened in Caesarea they said "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts11:18NKJV

Repentance leads to life. One is not saved until he repents, therefore salvation cannot be by faith alone.

I understand that one must believe in order to repent, but salvation from past sins cannot be received by a faith that is dead, faith without works is dead.

Repentance is a work that God commands us to do that leads to life.

 

[steaver]

Repentance leads to life. One is not saved until he repents, therefore salvation cannot be by faith alone.

Repents from what?

The current sins of the day? Of the past?

For how long does one repent of sins before God regenerates him? Just the moment?

What if one repents, God saves him, and then the next day he sins again? Wait a minute! That is ALL of us!

Looks like repentance from ALL sin is an impossibility. SO what sin do you believe must be repented of before God saves?

Here is the correct answer...One must repent of UNBELIEF and God will save them. :thumbsup: THen one can forever (while in this body of death) work on repenting of sins through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. (Which, btw, does not effect salvation at all, for by grace are ye saved, through FAITH)

:jesus:

 

[OldRegular]

Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit as demonstrated in Ephesians 2:1-8 which clearly teaches that while we are spiritually dead in trespasses we are made spiritually alive through no action on our part. We are then given the faith through which we believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up.

 

[Darron Steele]

...

Repentance leads to life. One is not saved until he repents, therefore salvation cannot be by faith alone.
...

It has been shown to you from the Scriptures that repentance and faith cannot be sharply distinguished.

The distinction you make, while evidently crucial for your argument, is inconsistent with Scripture. Your alleged distinction was addressed at http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1377575&postcount=164 .

As shown by both Scripture and common sense, repentance is a component of faith. There is no contradiction in Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV|GenB|ICB|KJV).​

If a person is not saved by faith, but is only saved after s/he has done plural "works," then Scripture contradicts itself. You think that if you can get us to not believe what this passage and others like it teach, then your position follows. This is not true. Your argument, if correct, would only prove that Scripture contradicts itself on salvation, and cannot be trusted to teach us about salvation.

Fortunately, there is no real contradiction in Scripture. You are just mistaken. The Bible can be, and should be, believed.

 

[JSM17]

Scripture allows no sharp distinction between repentance and faith. I realize that you are urgently trying to make such a distinction, as your argument apparently depends on it. Nonetheless, neither common sense nor Scripture allows that.

Acts 16:31 has “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). When a person has a "conviction" that Jesus Christ is Lord, s/he will immediately repent of living wrongly.

In Acts 2, the Jews that Peter preached at did assent that Jesus Christ was Lord, and they asked Peter what they should do. In Acts 2:38 he told them "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA); he told them to repent for the remission of their sins, and to be baptized. Evidently, they had not yet repented.
We go to Mark 1:15 “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (KJV). Here, repentance is placed before believing the Gospel.
The implication of these two is evident: the two cannot be separated. In some places of Scripture, repentance follows assent that Jesus Christ is Lord; in at least one place of Scripture, repentance precedes faith. Faith and repentance cannot be separated.

Now, it was great of you to point us to John 6:28-9 again, but the whole passage does not help your position at all:
“The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).
The people sought plural “works” -- as you do -- and Jesus corrected that: to fulfill what God wants, the one thing we have to do is believe on Jesus Christ as Lord.

Under permission allowed Paul when transcribing Scripture, Paul distinguished between faith and works as Ephesians 2:8-10 was written:
“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For | in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).
I realize that you like to muse on and on about why this cannot be the case -- but it does not change what this passage says. Your `musings' do not matter: the Bible teaches what you deny. You insist that a person must be saved by plural "works," but this passage explicitly states the negation. What the Bible teaches, goes.
__________________

"Scripture allows no sharp distinction between repentance and faith."

This may very well be the case, but it does not mean that they are they same thing, besides the few passages that you showed in your post do not prove your theory. There are many things having to do with faith that scripture does not make a sharp distinction between. That is a poor argument.

"I realize that you are urgently trying to make such a distinction, as your argument apparently depends on it. Nonetheless, neither common sense nor Scripture allows that."

Luke 13:3 talks about repentance but does not mention faith, with your logic I would have to assume that faith is not needed at all because there is no mention of faith.

Acts 16:31 has “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). When a person has a "conviction" that Jesus Christ is Lord, s/he will immediately repent of living wrongly.

Acts 16:30-34 And he brought them out and said,"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"31 So they said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
NKJV

They spoke the word of the Lord to them and he took them and washed their stripes and immediatetly they were baptized. There is no strong distinction between hearing the word and being baptized in this passage so believing after hearing the word and repenting (washing their stripes) and IMMEDIATELY being baptized must indicate that they had believed in God!

In Acts 2:38 he told them "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA); he told them to repent for the remission of their sins, and to be baptized. Evidently, they had not yet repented.

Actually he told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Evidently they had not repented or been baptized and had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit!

Acts 2:38

38 Pedro les dijo: Arrepentíos, y bautícese cada uno de vosotros en el nombre de Jesucristo para perdón de los pecados; y recibiréis el don del Espíritu Santo. Clearly they were told to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED FOR THE FOEGIVENESS OF SINS!

We go to Mark 1:15 “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (KJV). Here, repentance is placed before believing the Gospel.
The implication of these two is evident: the two cannot be separated. In some places of Scripture, repentance follows assent that Jesus Christ is Lord; in at least one place of Scripture, repentance precedes faith. Faith and repentance cannot be separated.

Why do you think repentance comes before faith in this passage, yet in no other passage after John's preaching?

If I use your logic faith and baptism cannot be separated.

True faith will result in a godly sorrow which will lead to repentance which is unto life. What kind of life?

Now, it was great of you to point us to John 6:28-9 again, but the whole passage does not help your position at all:
“The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).
The people sought plural “works” -- as you do -- and Jesus corrected that: to fulfill what God wants, the one thing we have to do is believe on Jesus Christ as Lord.

Actually they say"What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus says to them "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
The arguement that the Lord makes is that the works that God wants them to do is believing in Him. It is your assumption that God was correcting them because of their like view of multiple works idea, the context shows these people wanted to know what they could do and Jesus told them what they ought to do and that was to believe in Him. He did not say believe in Him and your saved and there are no further acts of obedience that God requires of you, He did not say your saved by faith alone, He did say that faith was a work whether anything follows, he does not make that sharp distinction. Jesus said that baptism saves, but you ignore that plain statement from our Lord, it would be interesting to see how many will explain themselves before Him about this simple statement.

Under permission allowed Paul when transcribing Scripture, Paul distinguished between faith and works as Ephesians 2:8-10 was written:
“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For | in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).
I realize that you like to muse on and on about why this cannot be the case -- but it does not change what this passage says. Your `musings' do not matter: the Bible teaches what you deny. You insist that a person must be saved by plural "works," but this passage explicitly states the negation. What the Bible teaches, goes.

Once more I point out that this passage says that this faith, whatever it is, does not come from you because Paul under permission through inspiration declared that "IT IS NOT OF YOURSELVES"
It is grace through the faith that we are saved!

I am not musing about what the passage does not say but showing as Paul has that the grace and the faith is not of you or me it is a gift of God.

I insist that we are saved by obedience to the gospel plan of salvation which Paul and others clearly taught through inspiration.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17).
Repentance follows faith or else how would we develop Godly sorrow which lead to repentance which leads to salvation (2 Cor. 7:10)?
Confession is onto salvation (Romans 10:10).
Baptism for the forgiveness of sins is the action to which Luke through inspiration declares that Ananias told Paul to arise and be baptized washing away his sins calling upon the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16). If Paul was saved on the road to Damascus then he was saved while still having his past sins. it was not til three days later that Paul was told what to do.

 

[steaver]

Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit as demonstrated in Ephesians 2:1-8 which clearly teaches that while we are spiritually dead in trespasses we are made spiritually alive through no action on our part. We are then given the faith through which we believe in Jesus Christ.

Do you believe then, we have no choice whether or not to call on Jesus for the work of the Holy Spirit salvation to be done in our lives? That God chooses whom He will save and whom He will not save regardless of any action of the people?

:jesus:

 

[JSM17]

Oldregular wrote

A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up.

I'll answer your question when you explain what Jesus was talking about in Mark 16:16; then tell me what was going on in Acts22:16 with Paul. Then explain to me 1 Peter 3:21. There are more passages but this will be enough, I am really intersted in some actually telling me what these passages mean. What kind of baptism is being spoken of in these passages. What do they mean?

As for LOSING our salvation like I lose a set of keys is rediculous, I do not see scripture teaching that someone can lose their salvation as if they have misplaced it.

 

[OldRegular]

Original Question From Old Regular
A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up.

Question Dodged By JSM17
I'll answer your question when you explain what Jesus was talking about in Mark 16:16; then tell me what was going on in Acts22:16 with Paul. Then explain to me 1 Peter 3:21. There are more passages but this will be enough, I am really intersted in some actually telling me what these passages mean. What kind of baptism is being spoken of in these passages. What do they mean?

As for LOSING our salvation like I lose a set of keys is rediculous, I do not see scripture teaching that someone can lose their salvation as if they have misplaced it.

I am interested in getting my question answered who believes the teachings of the Church of Christ. If you are unable to respond then say so and then ask your questions in a responsible manner, not in an attempt to dodge the initial question.

 

[Darron Steele]

Scripture allows no sharp distinction between repentance and faith. I realize that you are urgently trying to make such a distinction, as your argument apparently depends on it. Nonetheless, neither common sense nor Scripture allows that.

Acts 16:31 has “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). When a person has a "conviction" that Jesus Christ is Lord, s/he will immediately repent of living wrongly.

In Acts 2, the Jews that Peter preached at did assent that Jesus Christ was Lord, and they asked Peter what they should do. In Acts 2:38 he told them "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA); he told them to repent for the remission of their sins, and to be baptized. Evidently, they had not yet repented.
We go to Mark 1:15 “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (KJV). Here, repentance is placed before believing the Gospel.
The implication of these two is evident: the two cannot be separated. In some places of Scripture, repentance follows assent that Jesus Christ is Lord; in at least one place of Scripture, repentance precedes faith. Faith and repentance cannot be separated.

Now, it was great of you to point us to John 6:28-9 again, but the whole passage does not help your position at all:
John 6:28-9

“The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).​

The people sought plural “works” -- as you do -- and Jesus corrected that: to fulfill what God wants, the one thing we have to do is believe on Jesus Christ as Lord.

Under permission allowed Paul when transcribing Scripture, Paul distinguished between faith and works as Ephesians 2:8-10 was written:

“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For | in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).​

I realize that you like to muse on and on about why this cannot be the case -- but it does not change what this passage says. Your `musings' do not matter: the Bible teaches what you deny. You insist that a person must be saved by plural "works," but this passage explicitly states the negation. What the Bible teaches, goes."

Scripture allows no sharp distinction between repentance and faith."

This may very well be the case, but it does not mean that they are they same thing, besides the few passages that you showed in your post do not prove your theory. There are many things having to do with faith that scripture does not make a sharp distinction between. That is a poor argument.



Luke 13:3 talks about repentance but does not mention faith, with your logic I would have to assume that faith is not needed at all because there is no mention of faith.

Actually, no. You have trouble understanding me just as you seem to have trouble understanding Scripture.

Repentance is a component of faith. That has been shown to you from both Scripture and common sense -- http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1377575&postcount=164 -- although you have chosen not to accept that most likely because it hurts your argument. When repentance is mentioned, obviously that involves faith. As I have shown from both Scripture and common sense, repentance is included within faith.

Acts 16:30-34 And he brought them out and said,"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"31 So they said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
NKJV

They spoke the word of the Lord to them and he took them and washed their stripes and immediatetly they were baptized. There is no strong distinction between hearing the word and being baptized in this passage so believing after hearing the word and repenting (washing their stripes) and IMMEDIATELY being baptized must indicate that they had believed in God!

Duh. This does, however, not teach that if they had failed to be baptized, they would not have been saved.

There is clearly a distinction between faith and baptism here. It is temporal. Baptism cannot be done at the exact same moment a person believes. Further, the new converts were not baptized immediately. The new converts took care of the medical needs of Paul and Silas first. Baptism is separate from faith.

In Acts 2:38 he told them "Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA); he told them to repent for the remission of their sins, and to be baptized. Evidently, they had not yet repented.

Actually he told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Evidently they had not repented or been baptized and had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit!

Acts 2:38

38 Pedro les dijo: Arrepentíos, y bautícese cada uno de vosotros en el nombre de Jesucristo para perdón de los pecados; y recibiréis el don del Espíritu Santo. Clearly they were told to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED FOR THE FOEGIVENESS OF SINS!

Obviously not clearly.

The translation I quoted is accurate. There are no contradictions in Scripture. If a believer is unsaved until baptism, then Scripture hopelessly contradicts itself. The translation I quoted is both accurate and avoids any such contradiction.

Really? Where?

If you are referring to Mark 16:16, we will treat the forged material after Mark 16:8 as authentic for now, even though the ancient manuscript evidence suggests otherwise.

Assuming that passage's authenticity, He does not say that. He said what He said: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (KJV).

He did not say `He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved because He was baptized.' You add inference to it, and tell us that we are rejecting the teaching of Christ. Wrong.

Christ is Christ. You are you. You are not Him. Be careful to make that distinction.

It really comes down to this. You specify a plurality of works that a person must do in order to be saved, of which faith is only the first. If a person believes upon Jesus Christ as Lord, but fails to confess or to be properly baptized, then s/he does not receive remission of sins.

Here is what the Scriptures teach:

• John 6:28-9 has “The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV)
  • • Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).
      • • Acts 10:43b “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).
        If your position is true, then these passages are wrong.
        
        If there is a plurality of works other than faith that must be completed before salvation happens, then John 6:28-9 and Ephesians 2:8-10 are wrong. If a believer upon Jesus Christ is not saved if s/he fails to complete additional works, then Acts 10:43 is wrong.
        
        I am not willing to accept any such position because of a bunch of flawed inferences of other passages. When Scripture and human inferences are contradictory, I always accept the Scriptures as true.

 

[Tom Butler]

I believe it is a mistake to describe "the work of God" as a work we do. It is the work God does to bring about our belief on the Son.

Look carefully: "This is the work of God, that you believe." If you believe, it is a work of God.

Further, any attempt to separate repentance and faith must deal with Paul's sermon on Mars Hill in Acts 17.

At the end of the sermon, Paul said "God commands all men everywhere to repent...."
(v. 30)
What was the response in v 34? "Some believed...."

The command was to repent, the response was to believe.

 

[MorganT]

A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up.

Ive been saying this for years and he can not answer your question because if he does he will see just how wrong he is. I have had Church of Christ tell me that if they are facing a car accident and say Oh S**t in the process of that wreck and die then they are lost and going the H*ll. If it takes Baptism to gain salvation and you can lose that salvation then it takes Baptism to regain it. PLAIN AND SIMPLE however when you are basing your salvation on a WORKS method thats the kind of reasoning that you have.

 

[MorganT]

One of the verses that the coc uses to support there baptism claim is

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Yes this verse says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved, and then we have that word but and it says he who does not believe will be condemned did you notice though that it did not say and he who does not believe and does not get baptized will be condemned. Hmmmmm you guess thats because its not required in the first place.

Did John not say in Luk 3:16 John answered all, saying, I indeed baptize you with water, but He who is mightier than I comes, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to loose. He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,

So is this not speaking of Jesus Christ

Then we have in Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

This is before Act 2:38, so you see Jesus Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and we are Baptized with water as an act of obedience.

You also see in Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

They were told to be baptized for the remission of sins (John the Baptist baptizm) and then later they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and thats because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to them.

We find in Act 8:13-17 Then Simon himself believed also, and being baptized, he continued with Philip. And seeing miracles and mighty works happening, he was amazed. (14) And the apostles in Jerusalem hearing that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent Peter and John to them; (15) who when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. (16) For as yet He had not fallen on any of them, they were baptized only in the name of the Lord Jesus. (17) Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
We find in Acts 8 that they are just now receiving the Holy Spirit.

Now let me go on and blow the whole teaching of the church of Christ right on out of the water with this

Act 10:47-48 Can anyone forbid water that these, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, should not be baptized? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they begged him to stay certain days.


Tell me this how can someone that is not saved have already received the Holy Ghost. These people had not been baptized but they were saved as you can see from the scripture because they already had the Holy Ghost with them and get this they had the Holy Ghost BEFORE they were baptized thus cancelling out the church of Christ teachings with scripture.