Church Rapture seen in Revlation 4:1-4

[revmwc]

You are wrong. Henry says nothing about seeing resurrected bodies. He sees the 24 elders as representative of the Church. Unless you believe in soul sleep then the souls of all Saints go to heaven when they die!

We can go to Revelation 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

Observe, mh "1. The church begins the doxology, as being more immediately concerned in it (Revelation 5:8), the four living creatures, and the four-and-twenty elders, the Christian people, under their minister, lead up the chorus.

Verse 10:mh, " Every ransomed slave is not immediately preferred to honour he thinks it a great favour to be restored to liberty. But when the elect of God were made slaves by sin and Satan, in every nation of the world, Christ not only purchased their liberty for them, but the highest honour and preferment, made them kings and priests--kings, to rule over their own spirits, and to overcome the world, and the evil one and he has made them priests, given them access to himself, and liberty to offer up spiritual sacrifices, and they shall reign on the earth they shall with him judge the world at the great day."

We see in verses
8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

All the singing is taking place in Heaven and MH says "The church begins the doxology, as being more immediately concerned in it." that would place the church in Heaven prior to the Tribulation. Over and over we see MH teaching a Rapture of the church and here prior to the beginning of Earth's redemption we see "The church begins the doxology" in heaven.

Again prior to what you say was Darby forming the pre-trib rapture we see Henry saying "the church begins the doxology" and that doxology is clearly began in Heaven.

The Waldenses and other were looking for the return of christ for His church prior to the Tribulation.

 

[OldRegular]

We can go to Revelation 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

Observe, mh "1. The church begins the doxology, as being more immediately concerned in it (Revelation 5:8), the four living creatures, and the four-and-twenty elders, the Christian people, under their minister, lead up the chorus.

Verse 10:mh, " Every ransomed slave is not immediately preferred to honour he thinks it a great favour to be restored to liberty. But when the elect of God were made slaves by sin and Satan, in every nation of the world, Christ not only purchased their liberty for them, but the highest honour and preferment, made them kings and priests--kings, to rule over their own spirits, and to overcome the world, and the evil one and he has made them priests, given them access to himself, and liberty to offer up spiritual sacrifices, and they shall reign on the earth they shall with him judge the world at the great day."

We see in verses
8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

All the singing is taking place in Heaven and MH says "The church begins the doxology, as being more immediately concerned in it." that would place the church in Heaven prior to the Tribulation. Over and over we see MH teaching a Rapture of the church and here prior to the beginning of Earth's redemption we see "The church begins the doxology" in heaven.

Again prior to what you say was Darby forming the pre-trib rapture we see Henry saying "the church begins the doxology" and that doxology is clearly began in Heaven.

The Waldenses and other were looking for the return of christ for His church prior to the Tribulation.

You apparently do not understand that when Saints die they go into the presence of GOD. There is nothing in Revelation 5 that talks about resurrected Saints. You are inserting your false doctrine into everything you quote. Bad enough to do it to Henry but when you do it to Scripture that is forbidden by Scripture:

Revelation 22:18, 19
18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[revmwc]

You apparently do not understand that when Saints die they go into the presence of GOD. There is nothing in Revelation 5 that talks about resurrected Saints. You are inserting your false doctrine into everything you quote. Bad enough to do it to Henry but when you do it to Scripture that is forbidden by Scripture:

Revelation 22:18, 19
18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Every Believer from Adam to anyone in this present age soul goes to Heaven now. Prior to Christ death on the cross they went to Paradise with a great gulf fixed between it and torments, Jesus taught us that. At some point and probably during His 3 full days and 3 full nights in the tomb Christ carried those O.T. saints into Heaven. Everyone who died after that point that was saved went straight to heaven and still does. However, the big difference is that after Revelation 4 the resurrection of the Saints of this present age of Grace as Paul calls will have their completed resurrection bodies.

I guess until folks understand what is taking place in Revelation 6-19 is all about they will never understand the Church age believers being kept from the hour or time of tribulation.

It really isn't that hard to see. After Revelation 4 and 5, we never see the mention of the church. We see 144,000 Jews converted with a great multitude of souls. We see plagues, war and devastation greater than the world has ever known.

Just like Jesus Predicted and prophesied, yet there are those who don't want to believe in a literal judgment for the world.

The time of the Redemption of all creation. First the church would go through seven phases reaching the zenith with the Laodecian the Luke Warm Church the phase which we currently live in.

Revelation 3:14-21

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

The church of today is the chruch of the rights of the People that is what Laodecia means. People everywhere are demanding their rights. The right to believe their way. they have everything and have no need to believe God or His word. Not realizing just how wanting their doctrine is. It is this phase that Christ will return and many won't even realize it because for them nothing has changed. Christ says He will spew that church out of His mouth that is He will vomit them up they make Him sick.

they turn against the truth of His word, He stands at the door knocking to come in and fellowship with them, but they are too caught up in themselves and their beliefs to even fellowship with Him and yet even in this age we have a remnant and most of us who are in that Remnant were saved during the greatest phase the church would go through the Church of Brotherly Love, the church of the Revival era. The church that received the promise of not going through the hour of Trial. We may be still at the tail end of the phase but I believe we are in that Lukewarm time of the church of the Rights of the People.

when Christ returns for the church the true believers of His church the one He said to Peter upon this rock will I build my church, many in the current Phase will be spewed out as Lukewarm because they have never received Christ by Grace through Faith.

 

[OldRegular]

Every Believer from Adam to anyone in this present age soul goes to Heaven now. Prior to Christ death on the cross they went to Paradise with a great gulf fixed between it and torments, Jesus taught us that. At some point and probably during His 3 full days and 3 full nights in the tomb Christ carried those O.T. saints into Heaven. Everyone who died after that point that was saved went straight to heaven and still does. However, the big difference is that after Revelation 4 the resurrection of the Saints of this present age of Grace as Paul calls will have their completed resurrection bodies.

I guess until folks understand what is taking place in Revelation 6-19 is all about they will never understand the Church age believers being kept from the hour or time of tribulation.

It really isn't that hard to see. After Revelation 4 and 5, we never see the mention of the church. We see 144,000 Jews converted with a great multitude of souls. We see plagues, war and devastation greater than the world has ever known.

Just like Jesus Predicted and prophesied, yet there are those who don't want to believe in a literal judgment for the world.

The time of the Redemption of all creation. First the church would go through seven phases reaching the zenith with the Laodecian the Luke Warm Church the phase which we currently live in.

Revelation 3:14-21

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

The church of today is the chruch of the rights of the People that is what Laodecia means. People everywhere are demanding their rights. The right to believe their way. they have everything and have no need to believe God or His word. Not realizing just how wanting their doctrine is. It is this phase that Christ will return and many won't even realize it because for them nothing has changed. Christ says He will spew that church out of His mouth that is He will vomit them up they make Him sick.

they turn against the truth of His word, He stands at the door knocking to come in and fellowship with them, but they are too caught up in themselves and their beliefs to even fellowship with Him and yet even in this age we have a remnant and most of us who are in that Remnant were saved during the greatest phase the church would go through the Church of Brotherly Love, the church of the Revival era. The church that received the promise of not going through the hour of Trial. We may be still at the tail end of the phase but I believe we are in that Lukewarm time of the church of the Rights of the People.

when Christ returns for the church the true believers of His church the one He said to Peter upon this rock will I build my church, many in the current Phase will be spewed out as Lukewarm because they have never received Christ by Grace through Faith.

Wonder what Jesus Christ will do about those who teach HIS Church for which HE died is simply a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel?

I have already shown that Isaac Watts whom you people touted as a dispensationalists believed as I do that GOD is finished with National Israel.

The Elect of Israel will be saved, as Paul states, just like the Elect of every ethnic or national group in the world!

 

[Yeshua1]

Wonder what Jesus Christ will do about those who teach HIS Church for which HE died is simply a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel?

I have already shown that Isaac Watts whom you people touted as a dispensationalists believed as I do that GOD is finished with National Israel.

The Elect of Israel will be saved, as Paul states, just like the Elect of every ethnic or national group in the world!

Are you saying that hose of us holding to pre trib Rapture views are heretics, and maybe not even saved?

 

[OldRegular]

Are you saying that hose of us holding to pre trib Rapture views are heretics, and maybe not even saved?

You are no better at understanding posts than you are at understanding Scripture! I thought you rejected the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church?

 

[revmwc]

Wonder what Jesus Christ will do about those who teach HIS Church for which HE died is simply a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel?

I have already shown that Isaac Watts whom you people touted as a dispensationalists believed as I do that GOD is finished with National Israel.

The Elect of Israel will be saved, as Paul states, just like the Elect of every ethnic or national group in the world!

I don't know what He'll do to for teaching the church as a parenthesis, I don't teach it that way. God planned for the church in Eternity past, why you continue to insist on a parenthesis church I know not.

 

[prophet]

Here is when the multitude of redeemed appear in Heaven:

Rev 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And since we have "after" here, we have chronology potentially being established.

Rev. 4 is about John, period.
To infer anything else, is to privately interpret, what is not stated, and no Scripture...you know.

 

[OldRegular]

We can go to Revelation 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Do Saints pray when they are in Heaven? These are the prayers of Saints on earth!

 

[OldRegular]

I don't know what He'll do to for teaching the church as a parenthesis, I don't teach it that way. God planned for the church in Eternity past, why you continue to insist on a parenthesis church I know not.

I don't insist on a "parenthesis" Church. It is pre-trib-"snatching"-away-of-the Church Dispensational scholars who do!

Following are remarks by three prominent Classic Dispensationalists, Chafer, Ryrie, and Ironside. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Charles C. Ryrie is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the Ryrie Study Bible.

"But for the Church intercalation -- which was wholly unforeseen and is wholly unrelated to any divine purpose which precedes it or which follows it. In fact, the new, hitherto unrevealed purpose of God in the outcalling of a heavenly people from Jews and Gentiles is so divergent with respect to the divine purpose toward Israel, which purpose preceded it and will yet follow it, that the term parenthetical, commonly employed to describe the new age-purpose, is inaccurate. A parenthetical portion sustains some direct or indirect relation to that which goes before or that which follows; but the present age-purpose is not thus related and therefore is more properly termed an intercalation" [emphasis added] (Chafer, Systematic Theology, 4:41; 5:348-349).


Charles Ryrie says the same thing: "Classic dispensationalists used the words 'parenthesis' or 'intercalation' to describe the distinctiveness of the church in relation to God's program for Israel. An intercalation is an insertion of a period of time in a calendar, and a parenthesis in one sense is defined as an interlude or interval (which in turn is defined as an intervening or interruptive period). So either or both words can be appropriately used to define the church age if one sees it as a distinct interlude in God's program for Israel (as clearly taught in Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks in 9:24-27)" [emphasis added] (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.134).

Then there are the remarks of Harry A. Ironside former pastor of the Moody Memorial Church in Chicago. The quote is from the preface to his book, The Great Parenthesis.

The contents of the present volume are really an enlargement of lectures on Bible prophecy that have been given at various conferences during the past few years. It was never convenient to have these stenographically reported at the time of their delivery, and so the substance of the addresses has been very carefully gone over and is now presented for the consideration of those who are interested in the revelation which the Spirit of God has given concerning things to come.It is the author's fervent conviction that the failure to understand what is revealed in Scripture concerning the Great Parenthesis between Messiah's rejection, with the consequent setting aside of Israel nationally, and the regathering of God's earthly people and recognition by the Lord in the last days, is the fundamental cause for many conflicting and unscriptural prophetic teachings. Once this parenthetical period is understood and the present work of God during this age is apprehended, the whole prophetic program unfolds with amazing clearness.

http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword-...t-parenthesis/

I must state as forcefully as I can that I find the doctrine of the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, as a parenthesis or an intercalation, in God’s program for Israel to be not only unBiblical but repugnant, and I reject it completely. Now many pre-trib-"snatching away" folks will be disturbed but the truth is that the concept of the Church as a "parenthesis" in Gods program is the direct result of the pre-trib doctrine of John Nelson Darby. Whether dispensationalists want to acknowledge it or not the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church came out of the womb of John Nelson Darby's pre-trib-dispensational doctrine!

 

[OldRegular]

I don't know what He'll do to for teaching the church as a parenthesis, I don't teach it that way. God planned for the church in Eternity past, why you continue to insist on a parenthesis church I know not.

And then there ar the remarks of that falsely accused pre-trib-dispensationalist Isaac Watts:

On an earlier thread I posted remarks by the great song writer, Isaac Watts, regarding the Church and National Israel. They are appropriate here:

WATTS’S VIEW OF ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH

The answer to the previous question will become clearer in considering how Watts views the relationship between Israel and the church. In several cases Watts calls Israel “the church,” proclaims the “church or nation of the Jews” to be a “type or figure of the whole invisible church of God,” and explains that for Israel “the church was their whole nation, for it was ordained of God to be a national church.” This does not necessarily indicate a blurring of the two, however, for dispensationalists are not immune from calling Israel a “church”— both Darby and Scofield do so. For example, Darby mentions the “Jewish church (i.e., assembly) or nation” in his writings, and like- wise, Scofield says, “It [‘church’] is thus appropriately used, not only of the New Testament church and of the New Testament churches, but also of Israel in the wilderness (Acts vii : 38), and of the town meeting of Ephesus (Acts xix : 32, 39, 41, ‘assembly’).” As both of them high- light the underlying meaning of “assembly,” however, they seem to be using the term in its general sense rather than specifically referring to the New Testament body. Watts, however, appears to use the term more specifically and sees at least a typological relationship between the two bodies and very likely a replacement of Israel by the church.

Watts manifests this replacement emphasis in several places. He argues that God has rejected Israel as his people because of their sin and has replaced them with the Christian church:

God has fulfilled his word, and cut them off according to his threatenings, from his relation to him as their God, nor are they any longer his people; they have left their names for a curse to his chosen people, that is, the gospel church made up chiefly of Gentiles, who esteem the name of a Jew a reproach or a curse, and God has called his people, by another name, that is, christians, as he threatened so plainly by Isaiah, his prophet, chapter lxv. 15. These were the children of the kingdom concerning whom our Savior foretels, that they should not sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, but should be cast out into outer darkness; Mat. viii. 11, 12.52​

The church, according to Watts, inherits all of the promises God made to Israel, albeit in spiritual form:

As those Gentiles who do, really and inwardly, receive the Messiah, and practise his religion in faith and holiness, come into all these inward, real, and spiritual privileges and blessings; so all that make a visible and credible profession of faith, and holiness, and universal subjection to Christ, come into all the outward privileges of the visible church, under the gospel: Some few of which privileges are continued from the Jewish church, but the greatest part of them are abolished, because the gospel state is more spiritual than the dispensation of the levitical law, and not such a typical state as that was; and none are to be admitted into this visible church, and esteemed complete members of it, but those who make such a declaration and profession of their faith in Christ, and their avowed subjection to him, as may be supposed, in a judgment of charity, to manifest them to be real believers in Christ, the true subjects of his spiritual kingdom, and members of the invisible church.
http://scottaniol.com/wp-content/uploads/Aniol2.pdf

Watts states unequivocally that GOD has rejected National Israel just as I have stated on this BB numerous times presenting the following as Scriptural proof:

Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[revmwc]

And then there ar the remarks of that falsely accused pre-trib-dispensationalist Isaac Watts:

I never said anything about Watts other than I haven't studied much of his works, then I realized I had seen his songs. So why do you connect me with any statement on Watts?

 

[revmwc]

Do Saints pray when they are in Heaven? These are the prayers of Saints on earth!

The prayers of the saints which had not been answered. Praying for people to be saved who hadn't, so that they will trust in Christ. With the believers in heaven our prayers for those unsaved are still there for those on earth. Thanks for seeing how our Prayers for the salvation of others are stored to be answered. Also proving that many who have heard the Gospel still have prayers going up for them in the Tribulation.

 

[OldRegular]

The prayers of the saints which had not been answered. Praying for people to be saved who hadn't, so that they will trust in Christ. With the believers in heaven our prayers for those unsaved are still there for those on earth. Thanks for seeing how our Prayers for the salvation of others are stored to be answered. Also proving that many who have heard the Gospel still have prayers going up for them in the Tribulation.

Perhaps you should write a sequel to the Left Behind series. You have a vivid imagination. But so did Darby.

 

[revmwc]

Perhaps you should write a sequel to the Left Behind series. You have a vivid imagination. But so did Darby.

I actually have a series of books on revelation coming out.

 

[OldRegular]

I actually have a series of books on revelation coming out.

I hope they are not the fiction you have been spreading on this BB.

 

[revmwc]

I hope they are not the fiction you have been spreading on this BB.

Just the truth of scripture as lead by the Holy Spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

Just the truth of scripture as lead by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit does not lead one into error and the Darby pre-trib-doctrine is false!

 

[revmwc]

The Holy Spirit does not lead one into error and the Darby pre-trib-doctrine is false!

The Holy Spirit lead me to the Truth I have read very little of what Darby taught so I am not sure what he wrote. You claim he taught a Parenthesis church and I said post what he wrote and where he said it you haven't.

Just because you don't believe it that way doesn't mean it is in error, yours may in be in error. I know that all my sins were confessed and I was filled with the Spirit as I studied and He not you lead or any other Pastor brought me to this truth.
I know my Dad after fervent prayer to be lead to greater truths was lead to the Pre-Trib vies. So you tell me when a Christian ask the Holy Spirit in Fervent prayer to guide him to the truth would the Spirit lead to error?

 

[blessedwife318]

The Holy Spirit lead me to the Truth I have read very little of what Darby taught so I am not sure what he wrote. You claim he taught a Parenthesis church and I said post what he wrote and where he said it you haven't.

Just because you don't believe it that way doesn't mean it is in error, yours may in be in error. I know that all my sins were confessed and I was filled with the Spirit as I studied and He not you lead or any other Pastor brought me to this truth.
I know my Dad after fervent prayer to be lead to greater truths was lead to the Pre-Trib vies. So you tell me when a Christian ask the Holy Spirit in Fervent prayer to guide him to the truth would the Spirit lead to error?

I was taught the pre-trib rapture but, I'm also filled with the Spirit and asked His help to understand the Scriptures and guess what I never could bring myself to believe the pre-trib view. Even though that was all I was taught I always had a check in my spirit and the more I studies the more I became convinced of the truth that the pre-trib rapture was not convinced. Would the Holy Spirit lead me astray?

This is why we have to depend on Scripture because we can all post our subjective story about how the Holy Spirit taught us something. The Holy Spirit does not teach contrary to Scripture yet here we are both claiming to be taught something different so that means we need to go back to Scripture and wrestle with that because we both can't be right. Yet both of us are convinced the Holy Spirit illuminated our belief's.