Church Security

[DHK]

DHK further sez: Again, and I KNOW you know better, self-defense of self, or another being attacked, IS NOT MURDER.

'Course with this last election I can see how you might believe that if you say anything enough times, many folk will take it as gospel; even some here, but not most!

Now I been picking on DHK here, but there are a lot of posts in this thread that fit this description, so please guys, get real and cut out the Jr High tactics if, IF, (maybe this is key) you are serious about wanting to present a reasonable rejection of the original premise.

How much of this "self-defense" concept of yours is really self-defense? Perhaps it is more vengeance than self-defense. There is a difference. And we do know what the Lord says about vengeance.

First, define self-defense as a scriptural practice from the NT only. We do not live in OT times. We are not a nation as Israel was, commanded to drive out the inhabitants of the Promised Land. Our command and Scriptural premise for "self-defense" or for carrying weapons must come from the NT.

Here is the OP:
In the light of the shooting of Pastor Fred Winters last Sunday, should we take another look at church security?

In my vocabulary "church security" does not equate to self-defense. To defend one's family is one thing. To carry guns to church is quite a different matter. The two are entirely different situations. When Peter was in prison in Acts 12, the church (located in the house of Mary, the mother of Mark). There were no guns present. They were there to pray. They prayed without ceasing for the deliverance of Peter, and their prayers were miraculously answered.
I suppose today's society would opt to storm the prison with AK-47's instead.

Where is the battle?
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
--A fairly clear statement isn't it? We do not war after the flesh. I would say that includes guns.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
--Just to be clear about it, Paul emphasizes this fact--the weapons of our warfare are not guns--carnal. They are through God.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--This is what our warfare is about. It is fought with our mind; not with guns.

Ephesians 6:11-18 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

This is the armour that God gave us to do battle. I see no mention of guns.
Here is the initial command:
Ephesians 6:10-11 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
--Be strong in the Lord; Put on the whole armour of God; Stand against the wiles of the devil. It doesn't speak of guns or terrorists or of any such thing. Our battle is spiritual not carnal.

Here is an interesting verse to meditate on:
Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

The concept of "self-defense" that you hide behind is nothing more than "the fear of man." Bring guns to church because you are afraid; afraid of the terrorist; afraid of the criminals; afraid of the stranger that may walk into your church. You use the word "self-defense," but in reality it is fear.
The "fear of man" brings a snare: but whoso puts his trust in the Lord shall be safe. Our safety is in the Lord not in guns.

You are also trusting in your own society without giving any consideration to other societies. God's law is for all nations, not just for the USA.
Thus consider:
In Saudia Arabia, Christians live in fear of the government, for it is illegal for them to even hold a Bible Study, much less carry a gun to a church.
In the state of Orissa in India, there is a bounty put on the heads of Christians because they have been converting the lower caste Hindus. Who do you think has the guns? And what possibility is there of Christians fighting back?
In Pakistan, a small child was kidnapped from his Christian mother, and the corrupt Muslim judge awarded custody of the child to the kidnapper forcing the child to be a Muslim. The mother was also raped before being rescued by others. It is the Muslims that are armed; not the minority of Christians.

But perhaps the Lord will send you as missionaries to some of these nations where you think you have your right to bear arms. I sincerely hope that you don't try to exercise it. In fact, if you try to exercise that right (of having a concealed weapon) by just driving north and entering Canada, it may get you into some trouble. If I likewise tried to do the same thing, and tried to enter your country by car, I would not get past the border with a concealed weapon. I would be turned back or possibly arrested.

It is unbelievable that the "church" thinks they have more rights than entire nations do. We don't. Christians forsake their rights when they become Christians. Paul forsook his rights as a Roman citizen when he allowed himself to be jailed in Acts 16. He didn't have to be jailed. He could have put forth his Roman citizenship from the beginning, but didn't. He suffered gladly for Christ's sake--singing praises at midnight with Silas.

You have no rights.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
--Your body is not your own.
Your body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Spirit dwells in you (therefore you are not your own).
You were bought with a price (you are not your own)
Both your body and spirit belong to God. (you are not your own)
You are not your own; you have no rights.

 

[corndogggy]

The Lord said: "Thou shalt not murder."
Do you have a problem with that command?

The original text basically meant "Do not kill he who is judicially innocent". It uses the term "Ratsach", which if you do any research on that word, it does not mean that you cannot kill no matter what the circumstance.

That being said, if somebody's coming at me with the intent of doing me grave harm, that said person is going down if I can help it at all.

 

[JustChristian]

Jr High tactics is all they can come up with. Their defense on their position is weak and without a base. So they resort to refusing to look at any facts provided. (The facts are throughout this thread many times) There are plenty of countries where the subjects depend on the govt. to think for them. The USA is one of citizens (although many are trying to turn it into a country of subjects and not citizens) where for now the citizenry does not have to curtsy to anyone.

I have no quarrel with anyone who does not want to defend themselves (what kind of witness is that?) What I do have a quarrel with is someone who tries to force their weak, unscriptual ideas upon me and my family. I will pray for those people and even defend them from danger if need be.

Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple because it was inappropriate for the House of God. How do you expect He would react to people with concealed weapons.
?

 

[corndogggy]

The ironic part about all of this is that it is not the licensed people who legally and regularly carry that you have to worry about.

That being said, I don't have a problem at all with a limited number of specified known and trained persons carrying. Even though I am all about self defense, I don't know that I would agree that anybody and everybody should be allowed to carry in church, mainly because sooner or later some kid or crazy old grandma will see somebody having a gun, freak out, and all hell will break loose. I see nothing wrong with having an armed security guard off by themselves near the doors though.

 

[DHK]

Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple because it was inappropriate for the House of God. How do you expect He would react to people with concealed weapons.

To be an example of Jesus is our call. But I don't recall Jesus ever being armed, though he said he could call 12 legions of angels.

 

[DHK]

The original text basically meant "Do not kill he who is judicially innocent". It uses the term "Ratsach", which if you do any research on that word, it does not mean that you cannot kill no matter what the circumstance.

That being said, if somebody's coming at me with the intent of doing me grave harm, that said person is going down if I can help it at all.

Direct your comments to the OP--church security.
We are not talking of home invasions, another matter.
In other countries churches are attacked on a regular, even a daily basis. No one would ever think of guarding themselves with bullets, not in a church. The first action to be taken is to alert the police, if there is a perceived threat. If not, I suppose "trusting in the Lord," went out the window with former generations. It doesn't apply to us any more.

 

[corndogggy]

The first action to be taken is to alert the police, if there is a perceived threat. If not, I suppose "trusting in the Lord," went out the window with former generations. It doesn't apply to us any more.

The problem is by the time that normal church members realizes there's a perceived threat, these guys are already firing. Lots of people could get shot just in the time it takes to walk into the other room and grab a phone. By the time the police got there, he'd already be done.

For example, not sure if you guys have ever heard of Heath High School, but I live right beside it. A guy named Michael Carneal came in and started blasting away at a prayer group in the lobby. My wife's sister was holding hands with a girl who got shot in the head. Nobody realized there was a threat until girls in a prayer group started getting popped in the head. Nobody had a chance to call the police much less wait for them to show up. Had there been an armed guard next to the door, he could have been stopped.

This isn't a faraway type of story that only happens to other people, it happened in my own back yard. When it happens, it happens FAST. Police and security systems are absolutely worthless in these scenarios. These aren't fights that continue to escalate slowly with lots of signs of what is to come.

 

[DHK]

From the WALL STREET JOURNAL:

Purchases of guns and ammunition are surging across the country. Nearly four million background checks -- a key measure of sales because they are required at the purchase of a gun from a federally licensed seller -- were performed in the first three months of 2009. That is a 27% increase over the same period a year earlier, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

http://www.worthynews.com/top/online-wsj-com-article-SB123984046627223159-html/

The increase must be from all these Godly Christians exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, except with a penchant to shoot down others whom they fear.

"The fear of man brings a snare; but whoso puts his trust in the Lord shall be safe" (Prov.29:25).

 

[corndogggy]

The increase must be from all these Godly Christians exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, except with a penchant to shoot down others whom they fear.

It's well known that it's due to everybody thinking that Obama is going to outlaw new gun and ammo sales. Everybody's getting stuff while they still can. The only new thing that they fear is that they won't be able to freely go buy one in the future.

 

[corndogggy]

"The fear of man brings a snare; but whoso puts his trust in the Lord shall be safe" (Prov.29:25).

If you define "safe" as being shot in the head while praying without notice, then sure.

 

[just-want-peace]

Seems DHK continues to prove the point I made in my last post on this thread; #278

To continue to try to reason with such an opposing attitude is just "casting the pearls before the swine"!

 

[JustChristian]

To be an example of Jesus is our call. But I don't recall Jesus ever being armed, though he said he could call 12 legions of angels.

That isn't what I said. Please read my post again. I said if He drove out people making money in the temple how would He react to people carrying deadly weapons.

 

[blackbird]

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