Church Service Security & Guns

[Greektim]

I live in Honduras, one of the most dangerous countries in the world right now. I visited a church last year that was fairly large, nice facilities, big parking lot, and a gated property that can only be entered through the guarded gate. What caught my attention was that the guards were all packing heat (12 gauge pump action shotties) very visibly. You always see this sort of thing when ATMs are getting restocked. Also, many businesses have a guard posted outside visibly showing his shotgun.

The church I currently attend has a guard watching the property, but I don't know if he is carrying or not. Maybe he should be since there was a drive by shooting right in front of our property where 3 people were killed (the pastor was in his office at the time and has the bullet holes in his car to prove it).

Question, I see the need for security guards to patrol parking lots. W/out it, there are a lot of easy targets. However, the first example seems a bit extreme and bordering the exact opposite of Jesus' message.

Am I being too extreme on this or does this seem strange to anyone else?

What is your church's policy on service security and what not?

 

[Jerome]

Late last year a leader of FBC Durham (pastor is Andy Davis, prominent in 9Marks and The Gospel Coalition circles) was arrested at the Bermuda airport after being found with a 32 caliber pistol, ammo, and an extendable baton, along with a quarter of a million dollars in gold coin:

http://www.royalgazette.com/article/20111202/NEWS/712029876/1001

Mr Haywood had been leaving the Island for Canada when he was stopped. According to his lawyer, Saul Froomkin, Mr Haywood had intended to travel on to his mission in Chile.

His wife and numerous church associates from overseas were in court as Senior Magistrate Archibald Warner set bail. . .

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2011/12/lf-wade-international-airport-bermuda.html

He explained he is active in church affairs in his hometown – and many religious groups now have armed guards as a result of a string of gun attacks on churches.

Mr Heywood said: “I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon back home, I had to come to Bermuda on business and had a church thing the week before. I just forgot to take the gun out of my bag. We’ve had some incidents in churches back home, so I carry a gun. That’s not unusual where I come from.”"

 

[annsni]

Some of our men are armed but they are law enforcement and feel the need to carry. We're blessed to be in a pretty safe area but no where is safe in this environment today.

 

[Mexdeaf]

If the Lord tarries, I think the sight mentioned in the OP will be quite common to us in the USA- or the true church will just go underground.

 

[Yeshua1]

I live in Honduras, one of the most dangerous countries in the world right now. I visited a church last year that was fairly large, nice facilities, big parking lot, and a gated property that can only be entered through the guarded gate. What caught my attention was that the guards were all packing heat (12 gauge pump action shotties) very visibly. You always see this sort of thing when ATMs are getting restocked. Also, many businesses have a guard posted outside visibly showing his shotgun.

The church I currently attend has a guard watching the property, but I don't know if he is carrying or not. Maybe he should be since there was a drive by shooting right in front of our property where 3 people were killed (the pastor was in his office at the time and has the bullet holes in his car to prove it).

Question, I see the need for security guards to patrol parking lots. W/out it, there are a lot of easy targets. However, the first example seems a bit extreme and bordering the exact opposite of Jesus' message.

Am I being too extreme on this or does this seem strange to anyone else?

What is your church's policy on service security and what not?

I live in a city outside Detroit Mi and a 84 yr old security guard was gunned down outside parking lot at baptist church few months ago!

We had a security meeting in church last week, one of our members a swat sniper, and said that in USA fatalities at churches has risen from believe 49 to over 600 in past decade!

We are not issuing out gun permits yet, but are taking self defense for women, and learning how to recognise possible signs of bad behaviour!

 

[Greektim]

If the Lord tarries, I think the sight mentioned in the OP will be quite common to us in the USA- or the true church will just go underground.

That's kind of my question. Is it right for a church to be so heavily and visibly guarded? Or should we be more pacifistic and either car pool or go underground?

I'm not sure you can argue religious revolution for the first. At lest not Biblically. Otherwise, it would be a Baptist Crusade or some such.

Kind of hoping this turns into a discussion more than a debate. I'm wrestling with this in my own mind considering that I have my first child on the way.

 

[kyredneck]

If the Lord tarries, I think the sight mentioned in the OP will be quite common to us in the USA- or the true church will just go underground.

I expect we're headed that direction also. Whatever it takes, get used to it.

 

[kyredneck]

....Honduras, one of the most dangerous countries in the world right now....

Why is that?

("There is no such thing as a dumb question but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots"-Mark Twain)

<never mind>

 

[TCassidy]

On Sunday morning a Sheriff's Deputy, in uniform and with his patrol vehicle parked on the curb with red lights flashing, stands near our main entrance and stops traffic on the street as people cross the street from the main parking lot to the main entrance.

In addition to the uniformed Deputy many of our members are law enforcement officers who carry in church, and several members have CHLs and carry in church (including me) with the full knowledge and support of the pastor and deacons.

Churches are often considered "soft targets" by criminals seeking an easy victim, and, of course, especially in larger congregations, a fairly large amount of cash is collected on Sunday. The more the congregation is able to protect themselves and others the fewer such incidents will occur.

 

[Tom Bryant]

We have several police officers in our church and they are required to always carry. We have a few others who have concealed carry permits. Although I have never asked if they carry, I am sure they do. I am fine with it. I do think we will have more open carrying in the years to come.

 

[Gina B]

What is meant by "the opposite of Jesus' message?"

His message seems to be that it is a duty to protect others from those who would do them harm, even to the point of leading believers into war and to take over land that belonged to unbelievers to the gain of the believers. He also told the disciples to sell what they had no need of, but also said to buy a sword if they didn't have one.

When He physically walked on earth, there would have been no point in having weapons when you literally had Christ beside you, but obviously they did have weapons, as evidenced by Peter drawing his sword and the prior. He wasn't rebuked for having the sword, but because it wasn't what was supposed to happen. He wasn't told to toss the weapon, but to put it away.

It seems like the message is that having a weapon for defense is a good thing. Only problem was when a person tried to use one to defend Christ - the one person that didn't need human defenses and would have not been able to fulfill scripture if Peter and/or others had successfully defended Him from being arrested at that particular point in time.

I don't know what our church does. I never thought about it...just assumed that most people in any public setting like that have people who carry weapons. Seems like common sense.

 

[glazer1972]

There is at least one in our church armed.

 

[Gina B]

There is at least one in our church armed.

:laugh: :thumbs:

 

[Alive in Christ]

If I were a member of ANY church that had "hit men" walking around "carry'n", I would IMMEDEIATLY leave and not come back.

I have never been a part of any church that had people standing around "ready to kill", and never will.

 

[annsni]

If I were a member of ANY church that had "hit men" walking around "carry'n", I would IMMEDEIATLY leave and not come back.

I have never been a part of any church that had people standing around "ready to kill", and never will.

What makes you characterize the men who carry at church that way? Most are present or former law enforcement who are not "ready to kill" but instead ready to protect.

 

[Oldtimer]

There is at least one in our church armed.

I know there are several in our church who are armed. And, I'm reasonably sure there are others, as well.

Our church has sponsored several concealed carry courses in recent years. This course is required to obtain a CC permit here.

AIC, if your state has CC how can you be sure that any church you attend doesn't have someone in the congregation with a gun on their person? Does your church have a No Firearms sign at the front door?

If your immediate family members were in real danger of losing their lives, would you tell anyone with the ability to defend them to lay down their arms?

 

[Greektim]

I think many are commenting on something different than I had in mind. I'm not so much concerned w/ packing heat at church. My dad was a cop. He always carried wherever he went.

I'm asking would it be right for churches to have armed security at the entrance gate? In other words, is it ok for security guards (w/ their shotguns hanging in front of them in a threatening way) to admit or dismiss people as they come to church? Does that send the correct message? Who would you let in? Would visitors get in? If so, what is the criteria? If they look shady, do you turn them away for fear they could be robbers or some such? Is this Jesus' conception of believers congregating together???

 

[saturneptune]

It is sad that one has to be afraid in any church of such a possibilty of someone pulling a gun. Each church should have its own policy.

 

[TCassidy]

If I were a member of ANY church that had "hit men" walking around "carry'n", I would IMMEDEIATLY leave and not come back.

I have never been a part of any church that had people standing around "ready to kill", and never will.

It is very sad that you show such hatred of Christ's commands and His people who follow His will.

Exodus 22:2 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed."

Psalm 144:1 tells us that it is God "Who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle".

Luke 22:36 "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one". The sword being the finest weapon available in that day.

 

[Jerome]

From Jack Van Impe's 1977 biography They Call Him The Walking Bible:

He said, "We have every exit covered because we have received official reports that there is a plot to kill you." For the next forty-eight hours, the Van Impes were unable to travel without armed guards. Neither hand-shaking nor Bible signing was allowed until the final night of the crusade and even then only with officers present

I had personally received warnings. I was told that militants wanted Dr. Jack Hyles and myself "out of the way." . . . Six guards were assigned to the crusade platform. My personal bodyguards (one of whom had been personal bodyguard to Mayor Rizzo for three and one half years) demanded that I wear a bulletproof vest. I tried it the first night and felt handicapped. The next day I said: "Men, I have spent the night in prayer and feel it is a lack of faith to wear this vest for the entire crusade." From that moment onward, perfect peace filled my soul.