They are fulfilled Jews, spiritual Israel once saved!
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Church vs Israel argument
- Thread starter Marooncat79
- Start date
God still has a plan for national Israel....
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jew = religion. Are there Christian Muslims? Christian Jehovah's Witnesses?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
His only plan is to convert some to Christ and to destroy the rest.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.’” John 3:36 (NCPB)
Jesus' kingdom is spiritual and will never be of this world. That is Phariseeism, not Christianity.
Former ones, but being Jewish is an enthnic thing!
God will fulfill Ezekiel 37/38 to them!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
He fulfilled it in Esther. Do you actually think it mentions Russia when it doesn't?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jews = religion. Christianity is not Judaism.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Practically, the author's view differs in that he posits "spiritual Israel" and the spiritual gentile nations being part of the same olive tree.
So, in Christ, believing Jews and believing Gentiles are the Church, while those outside of that are not and never were.
"Replacement Theology" says that Israel, as a nation, was replaced by the Church ( saved individual Jews and Gentiles ), and that Israel no longer has any part to play in God's plans to save anyone...whereas the author says that it was never replaced, but that the Jews who were saved across time, formed a core which was built upon with saved Gentiles.
In a way, I agree.
I also go one step further and state that in my studies, I see that there was always a people of God, spiritually, in Israel ( which the author does as well )...
Just as there are now people of God, spiritually, in the Gentile nations.
In other words, it was always God's intention and part of His plan of redemption to take a people out of every nation for His name's sake.
Not just Israel, but all tongues, tribes and nations.
Israel as a physical nation was not replaced by the church...
The physical nation was not and never has been the main focus with regard to salvation.
The spiritual nation of both Israel and the Gentiles ( the "Israel of God" ), is and was.
So, I think the author does a good job of representing what Romans 11 and other passages teach on the new covenant...
Without even bringing up election, though it is alluded to.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Dave,
Do you not see that Ezekiel 36 through Ezekiel 37 will be fulfilled at the time of Christ's second coming, when the remainder of Israel will see Him as He is?
Please read Ezekiel 37:21-27 for emphasis.
May God bless you.
37818
Well-Known Member
Jesus taught otherwise, John 4:22, ". . . for salvation is of the Jews."
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, Dave.
Jesus' kingdom, the kingdom of God, is spiritual.
It is not "of this world" in the sense that it is not of this world's ways, the ways of sinful men.
But it will also be physical someday.
It will be on this earth when the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven ( Revelation 21 ).
It will be part of the new heavens and the new earth.
Its measurements and materials are laid out in Revelation 21:9-27.
If I may ask, did you miss that in your reading?
I understood that being Jewish is claimed ethnicity - from Abraham - not of religion. When a Jew is converted he is still a Jew - as were the Apostles & those who believed the Gospel. We are still Gentiles, British, American, Arab, etc.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Actually it is through circumcision. Even blood relatives were excommunicated if not circumcised. Guess what happened when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
There is no millennium. Jesus proved this, a pharisee idea, wrong in the gospels. Next are the new heavens and earth.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
We were grafted into the place of the unbelieving Jews who were removed and reduced to gentiles when Christ abolished circumcision on the cross.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“And say unto them, “Thus saith the Lord GOD, ‘Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgements, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt, and they shall dwell therein, even they and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Ezekiel 37:21–27 (NCPB)
That is about us and it's has been in place since Christ's first advent.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That is about Israel and its being restored as a nation in the end times.
No longer a divided kingdom of 10 tribes versus 2 and scattered throughout the world, but a united nation with Christ as its Head.
We as Gentile believers will be part of this, when He comes again.
Israel will be restored as a nation, and He will rule it and the world of the Gentiles from the throne of David at Jerusalem.
It will come to pass, my friend.
God never lies.
According to God's very words, there will be a thousand years when Christ will rule from the throne of His father David.
Jesus proved this when He had John write Revelation.
Please see Revelation 20:3-7.
That's why it's called "Revelation" Dave, because the Lord Jesus Christ has revealed many end-time truths to His servants via His apostle John.
This is my last reply to you on this subject on this forum, sir.
If you choose to reject the words on the page, I'm sorry.
But I still stand on the words as being literal, not figurative.
I also stand on the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel as foretelling many future ( and very real ) events, which include a time when the Lord Jesus shall rule the nations with a rod of iron, until all of His enemies be made His footstool.
If that is a "fairy tale" to you, then I reason that you probably won't believe many of the other "fairy tales" of God's word, either.
But I truly hope that you do, because the words on the page are worth believing...
Even though to us as men, they describe some very hard-to-believe things like God becoming a man and being born of a woman who had never "known" a man, I still believe them.
I also believe that there will one day come a man ( very soon now ) who will look like Christ to all that are undiscerning, and he will rule for 3.5 years until Christ comes in the clouds to take His rightful throne at Jerusalem...splitting the Mount of Olives in half, making a valley out of its peak.
It's all in the Bible, Dave...
Where do you think I read it?
But, since you and I do not agree on this subject, I will limit further responses to things that we do agree about.
I wish you well, sir, and I truly hope you take all of His words to heart.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are reading the OT as the Pharisees did. And God blinded them so they could not understand. Jesus changed all of this. When he taught the Kingdom is spiritual only, this meant all Kingdom prophecies were symbols, not to be taken literally. Some examples are; He is the Temple. His kingdom came in the time of Daniel's 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire even though only the born again can see it. The carnal mind says it is yet to come and is physical. Elijah came as John the Baptist. Jesus IS Israel proper in the New Covenant, not the unbelievers who call themselves Israel. He is Abraham's seed, not the unbelieving Jews. And so on....According to God's very words, there will be a thousand years when Christ will rule from the throne of His father David.
Jesus proved this when He had John write Revelation.
Please see Revelation 20:3-7.
That's why it's called "Revelation" Dave, because the Lord Jesus Christ had revealed many end-time truths to His servants via His apostles John.
This is my last reply to you on this subject on this forum, sir.
If you choose to reject the words on the page, I'm sorry.
But I still stand on the words as being literal, not figurative.
I also stand on the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel as foretelling a time when the Lord Jesus shall rule the nations with a rod of iron, until all of His enemies be made His footstool.
If that is a "fairy tale" to you, then I reason that you probably won't believe many of the other "fairy tales" of God's word, either.
But I truly hope that you do, because the words on the page are worth believing.
Even though to us as men, they describe some very hard-to-believe things like God becoming a man and being born of a woman who had never "known" a man, I still believe them.
I also believe that there will one day come a man ( very soon now ) who will look like Christ to all that are undiscerning, and he will rule for 3.5 years until Christ comes in the clouds to take His rightful throne at Jerusalem...splitting the Mount of Olives in half, making a valley out of its peak.
It's all in the Bible, Dave...
Where do you think I read it?
I wish you well, sir, and I truly hope you take all of His words to heart.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
This is not true. Jesus presently rules from David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. Per Peter at Pentecost. The 1000 years in Revelation 20 are not the kingdom. They represent Satan's binding by the gospel from deceiving the nations. Satan attacks the Kingdom when the 1000 years end.