City Threatens to Arrest Ministers Who Refuse to Perform Same-Sex Weddings

[go2church]

Sacred or not, businesses should not be forced to go against their wishes. This is simply over-reach. Not sure why most won't admit this.

The overreach would be if the city didn't enforce laws on the books, allowing this business to have a special exemption.

If you don't want the business laws to apply to you, don't start a business or change the laws.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The law it'self is the over-reach.

"Don't start a business". :laugh:


I can't wait until the first mosque is forced to marry two men.

 

[Zaac]

So the title is not sensationalistic now?

Yes it is.

 

[Zaac]

The government has no business making laws that make people accept sin as acceptable. Period.

Perhaps this is God's way of saying that minsters and those who are supposed to enjoin people in covenant with HIM shouldn't be trying to profit off these "marriages" that don't include Him be they heterosexual or homosexual.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The law it'self is the over-reach.

"Don't start a business". :laugh:


I can't wait until the first mosque is forced to marry two men.

You're comparing a for profit business with a religious place of worship. No one is forcing pastors to marry gays. They are enforcing a just law that says a business cannot refuse service based on sexual orientation.

If I disagree with same sex marriage (which I do) but own a restaurant, I can't refuse gays service. Likewise at a bank. Likewise at a grocery store. Likewise at a for profit chapel.

It's not overreach, it's not unjust. And it's not persecution. It's a just law.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You're comparing a for profit business with a religious place of worship. No one is forcing pastors to marry gays. They are enforcing a just law that says a business cannot refuse service based on sexual orientation.

I'm not confusing the issues. The issue, for me, is a business can refuse service to anyone. And it should not have to even give a reason.

If I disagree with same sex marriage (which I do) but own a restaurant, I can't refuse gays service. Likewise at a bank. Likewise at a grocery store. Likewise at a for profit chapel.

Recently they passed a law that you cannot allow people to smoke in your bar. As a libertarian, I bristle at this, or because I bristle at this, I became a Libertarian. I disagree with you. You should be allowed to do business with the types of clients you choose to. The free market will do a better job of weeding out hateful businesses than these stupid laws ever could hope to. And if you want to let people smoke in your bar you should be allowed to.

 

[carpro]

The law it'self is the over-reach.

"Don't start a business". :laugh:


I can't wait until the first mosque is forced to marry two men.

That'll be a hoot!

But it will never happen. Only Christians are forced to go against their faith.

 

[Sapper Woody]

I'm not confusing the issues. The issue, for me, is a business can refuse service to anyone. And it should not have to even give a reason.



Recently they passed a law that you cannot allow people to smoke in your bar. As a libertarian, I bristle at this, or because I bristle at this, I became a Libertarian. I disagree with you. You should be allowed to do business with the types of clients you choose to. The free market will do a better job of weeding out hateful businesses than these stupid laws ever could hope to. And if you want to let people smoke in your bar you should be allowed to.

I agree with you on smoking. Businesses should be allowed to allow people to smoke in them if they choose.

Now, concerning clientele, you should be able to refuse service to anyone, no reason given. But, once a reason is given, such as they are gay, you have discriminated and should be prosecuted. Same as if you refuse service to a black person for being black.

The answer is simple. Retain a right to refuse service for any reason. Then don't give a reason.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

In the end, we agree.

Now what do we do with all them "Smoke-filled Honkey-Tonk" songs ?

 

[carpro]

If I disagree with same sex marriage (which I do) but own a restaurant, I can't refuse gays service. Likewise at a bank. Likewise at a grocery store. Likewise at a for profit chapel.

You should be able to refuse to serve anyone for any reason. It's your business.

Now, before you lecture me on the law and the reasons for it, remember I'm old enough to have eaten in places where a sign was posted stating "No Colored people allowed". I objected to that policy then and I do now.

There is also a difference between serving food and performing Holy Matrimony. At least, to me there is.

There is nothing religious about the serving of your food. But we could pretend you are not serving a particular food item that some ethnic group likes to eat. Now they force you to stock that food whether you want to or not. You're discriminating against them by refusing to put boiled cocktoaches on your menu????????

Just how far do we allow government to encroach on our businesses? You better have them roaches ready when I come to visit.

 

[carpro]

The answer is simple. Retain a right to refuse service for any reason. Then don't give a reason.

Easier said than done.

 

[Zaac]

You should be able to refuse to serve anyone for any reason. It's your business.

The caveat here is that it's your business because the government gave you the tax ID and the license/permit to operate it and receive government issued currency in exchange for your services/product.

Because it's a BUSINESS beholden to the government for so much, the government can enforce the business to abide by its laws.

The Interstate Commerce Clause gets em every time.

Now, before you lecture me on the law and the reasons for it, remember I'm old enough to have eaten in places where a sign was posted stating "No Colored people allowed". I objected to that policy then and I do now.

There is also a difference between serving food and performing Holy Matrimony. At least, to me there is.

There is if you're a CHURCH not attempting to profit off performing marriages. If you're a public chapel who performs weddings of all kinds as a business with a business and tax id, there is legally no difference.

Just how far do we allow government to encroach on our businesses? You better have them roaches ready when I come to visit.

If it's a for-profit business, they can encroach as far as they want. It's their money.

 

[Sapper Woody]

You should be able to refuse to serve anyone for any reason. It's your business.

Now, before you lecture me on the law and the reasons for it, remember I'm old enough to have eaten in places where a sign was posted stating "No Colored people allowed". I objected to that policy then and I do now.

There is also a difference between serving food and performing Holy Matrimony. At least, to me there is.

There is nothing religious about the serving of your food. But we could pretend you are not serving a particular food item that some ethnic group likes to eat. Now they force you to stock that food whether you want to or not. You're discriminating against them by refusing to put boiled cocktoaches on your menu????????

Just how far do we allow government to encroach on our businesses? You better have them roaches ready when I come to visit.

I think the reason that we are of differing opinions here, Carpro, is that I don't see them as marrying people in "Holy" matrimony. They are glorified justices of the peace. They are not ministers, performing a religious ceremony. They are offering a service, that they hypocritically try to refuse gays while serving fornicators and adulterers.

So, I think it basically comes down to whether you see them as pastors performing a religious ceremony, or someone just offering a service. With the name "Hitching Post", I know what I think of them.

 

[carpro]

I think the reason that we are of differing opinions here, Carpro, is that I don't see them as marrying people in "Holy" matrimony. They are glorified justices of the peace. They are not ministers, performing a religious ceremony. They are offering a service, that they hypocritically try to refuse gays while serving fornicators and adulterers.

So, I think it basically comes down to whether you see them as pastors performing a religious ceremony, or someone just offering a service. With the name "Hitching Post", I know what I think of them.

Must have missed it in the story. Did it state neither one of them was an ordained minister?

Either way...

They don't refuse to marry gays. Their stated policy is to unite in marriage one man with one woman. If they are gay, so be it.

How 'bout them roaches? Gonna put 'em the menu before I file a discrimination lawsuit against you?


Hmmm..... Had to go back and read the story again. It states clearly that they are both ordained ministers.

 

[sag38]

I would perform the ceremony but when I was finished with the sermon portion of the ceremony they, most likely, would have bolted out the door. Let's just say that they would have no doubt as to what the Bible says about their ungodly union. There is more than one way to skin a cat and be within the confines of the law when operating a business that is utilized by the general public.

 

[Zaac]

I would perform the ceremony but when I was finished with the sermon portion of the ceremony they, most likely, would have bolted out the door. Let's just say that they would have no doubt as to what the Bible says about their ungodly union. There is more than one way to skin a cat and be within the confines of the law when operating a business that is utilized by the general public.

I couldn't help but laugh at the picture in my head. :laugh:

 

[Alcott]

Not a church. A wedding Chapel is a business... A place of public accommodation.

And so is a delicatessen. I'm going to look for one and ask to buy a ham sandwich, and when they say they serve kosher only, I should able to sue them for religious discrimination... if the info given her about nondiscrimination in public accommodations is accurate.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Must have missed it in the story. Did it state neither one of them was an ordained minister?

Either way...

They don't refuse to marry gays. Their stated policy is to unite in marriage one man with one woman. If they are gay, so be it.

How 'bout them roaches? Gonna put 'em the menu before I file a discrimination lawsuit against you?


Hmmm..... Had to go back and read the story again. It states clearly that they are both ordained ministers.

This was a poor statement on my part. I didn't mean that they weren't ordained. I meant that they weren't ministering. They don't have a ministry. They have a business.

 

[Sapper Woody]

And so is a delicatessen. I'm going to look for one and ask to buy a ham sandwich, and when they say they serve kosher only, I should able to sue them for religious discrimination... if the info given her about nondiscrimination in public accommodations is accurate.

Refusing to have something on a menu, and refusing to serve a group of people are two different things. Carpro keeps bringing this up, too. I was ignoring it, though, as it's nonsense. But now two people are using the same straw man argument.

It's not even close to the same. "I'll have chili" "Sorry, we don't serve chili" "Discrimination". Stupid argument.

"I'll have chili" "Sorry, we don't serve gays." "Discrimination!" Now you have an argument.

 

[carpro]

This was a poor statement on my part. I didn't mean that they weren't ordained. I meant that they weren't ministering. They don't have a ministry. They have a business.

I don't know that we get to decide that. Do we know that they do not also counsel the people they marry on what God meant for a marriage to be?

Getting paid to marry someone does not disqualify a person from performing a ministry. Most preachers receive an honorarium to marry even members of their on congregation.