Classical vs Latin Atonement

[McCree79]

I might say the same about you. Satan did not have to materialize in order to murder Christ, but the fact is, he didn't do it. The Son laid down His own life at the behest of the Father.
The cross was Satan's defeat. Do you think he did not hear our Lord foretell His death and resurrection several times to His disciples? Why would he facilitate God's pre-announced plan since it was His ultimate downfall?

When was the 'beginning? When he caused the death of Adam and Eve.

You're assuming Satan understood the nature of the atonement. If Satan understood the nature of Christ death, he would have acted much differently when he entered into Judas. Satan got out played by God and did exactly what God wanted him to do. Which is to play a part in the death of the Son...which is the "bruise the heel" that KYRedneck is reffering to.

Satan may have certainly been aware of Jesus talking about dying, but he did not understand what that death would accomplish.

Yes the Son laid down His own life, no one, not even Satan could take that from Him. Nor Pilate, the Jews or the Romans....but they all did play a part in His death.

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[DaveXR650]

@kyredneck , You have to read what people post instead of putting up a partial quote and then pretending that is all that was said. If you want to rebut the whole quote then post the whole quote. You have to be careful when you say that Jesus was murdered because of some very serious implications, some of which would be heresy. There are multiple facets to this in that this was a plan that was according to the will of Jesus and totally under his control, and yes, the fact that Jews and Roman soldiers actually did the deed.

 

[kyredneck]

You have to read what people post instead of putting up a partial quote

Why? I address [usually the first] error that is usually the point that corrupts the entire post. I've neither the time nor the desire to scrutinize all the bloviation that occurs on the BB.

You have to be careful when you say that Jesus was murdered because of some very serious implications, some of which would be heresy.

You say I have to be careful, not to tell the story the way the Spirit tells it, not to declare the whole counsel of God, for fear of creating heretics. That reminds me of a passage concerning hoi polloi, which you seem to always aim to conform to:

17 For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, speak we in Christ. 2 Cor 2

The word was used in reference to wine merchants watering down their wine, i.e., hoi polloi, the many, the most, the majority, watering down the word of God. Akin to adding leaven to bread to make it more palatable, and what you and @Martin Marprelate are peddling, that the Serpent didn't kill Christ, is pure leaven, bound to create heretics.

There are multiple facets to this in that this was a plan

You think I don't know that? Genesis 50:20

 

[DaveXR650]

You think I don't know that?

Well, no. Not on the basis of the rest of your post. That was my whole concern.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You're assuming Satan understood the nature of the atonement. If Satan understood the nature of Christ death, he would have acted much differently when he entered into Judas. Satan got out played by God and did exactly what God wanted him to do. Which is to play a part in the death of the Son...which is the "bruise the heel" that KYRedneck is reffering to.

Satan may have certainly been aware of Jesus talking about dying, but he did not understand what that death would accomplish.

Yes the Son laid down His own life, no one, not even Satan could take that from Him. Nor Pilate, the Jews or the Romans....but they all did play a part in His death.

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Really?
You make Satan out to be awfully stupid. When the Lord Jesus says, "I lay down My life a ransom for many," Satan says, "Let me help!" But actually, everything Satan does is aimed at making our Lord disobey His Father as I wrote above.
And the people who came together to kill the Lord Jesus are depicted in Acts of the Apostles 4:27. No mention of Satan.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The word was used in reference to wine merchants watering down their wine, i.e., hoi polloi, the many, the most, the majority, watering down the word of God. Akin to adding leaven to bread to make it more palatable, and what you and @Martin Marprelate are peddling, that the Serpent didn't kill Christ, is pure leaven, bound to create heretics.

To a lot of people here, saying that God killed Christ is a whole lot less palatable than saying that Satan did it.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

You are wrong. Both Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism are within Orthodox Christianity.

I believe they are both wrong.

That said, we were discussing your comment that opposing doctrines cannot both be orthodox. So those extremes are a bit misleading.

Presbyterian Theology and Baptist Theology are opposing views. By your statement Presbyterians are unorthodox (RC Sproul, for example, would have been spreading a message that stood outside of orthodox Christianity).

You apparently are the arbiter of what's orthodox and what's not. Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism stand outside the camp theologically.

Conservative Presbyterianism and Conservative Baptists share a lot of common ground. Narrowing it down to Reformed Baptists and Orthodox Presbyterians (to cite just one of several biblically conservative Presbyterians) --the two denominations are in lockstep about 90% or more theologically.

On the other hand many, many Baptist groups have a number of heterodox beliefs --that would put them at a distance from Reformed Baptists doctrinally.

 

[JonC]

You apparently are the arbiter of what's orthodox and what's not. Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism stand outside the camp theologically.

Conservative Presbyterianism and Conservative Baptists share a lot of common ground. Narrowing it down to Reformed Baptists and Orthodox Presbyterians (to cite just one of several biblically conservative Presbyterians) --the two denominations are in lockstep about 90% or more theologically.

On the other hand many, many Baptist groups have a number of heterodox beliefs --that would put them at a distance from Reformed Baptists doctrinally.

Me? No. I'm talking about Orthodox Christianity. These are historical positions within Christianity.

I believe Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism is wrong. But your faith (Reformed Theology) is dependent to a great extent on Roman Catholic theology. Presbyterian Theology and Reformed Baptist Theology are closer to Roman Catholic Theology than many Baptist groups.

It depends on who is defining "orthodox". I am talking about Christian Theology as a whole (or in general).

Many, many conservative Presbyterians consider Reformed Baptist theology unorthodox. Many, many Baptist churches consider Reformed Baptist Theology and Presbyterian Theology unorthodox.

 

[kyredneck]

To a lot of people here, saying that God killed Christ is a whole lot less palatable than saying that Satan did it.

Which begs the question(s):

Who sold Joseph into Egypt?:
20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen 50

Who moved David?:
And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chron 21:1

Who enticed Ahab?:
20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22 And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Ki 22

Who afflicted Job?:
11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. Job 1
5 But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
6 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life. Job 2

Who tempted Christ?:
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil Mt 4 [Mark 1:12]

Who sifted Peter?:
31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22

Who buffeted Paul?:
7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. 2 Cor 12

Who killed Christ?:
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4

 

[JonC]

You're assuming Satan understood the nature of the atonement. If Satan understood the nature of Christ death, he would have acted much differently when he entered into Judas. Satan got out played by God and did exactly what God wanted him to do. Which is to play a part in the death of the Son...which is the "bruise the heel" that KYRedneck is reffering to.

Satan may have certainly been aware of Jesus talking about dying, but he did not understand what that death would accomplish.

Yes the Son laid down His own life, no one, not even Satan could take that from Him. Nor Pilate, the Jews or the Romans....but they all did play a part in His death.

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I agree.

The emphasis should be that Christ was "crushed" or "brought to grief" (suffered and died) by the powers of evil (the "hands of wicked men") but that this was according to the "predetermined plan of God's (it was by God's will, it "pleased God").

 

[JonC]

To a lot of people here, saying that God killed Christ is a whole lot less palatable than saying that Satan did it.

I think it does not matter what men says. It matters what God said.

Christ was "crushed", "put to grief", suffered and died under the powers of evil (by the hands of wicked men....mem "of the devil"). Yet this was according to God"s predetermined plan (His will...it pleased Him).

The reason most Christians believe that Christ was killed by the powers of this world (powers of darkness, evil, Satan) according to God's predetermined plan is that this is what the Bible says.

If you read Church history you will find no Christian attributing Christ's suffering and death to God (except God offering His Son as a sacrifice to die by the powers of this World) until fairly recently.

It is an idea born out of philosophy, not Scripture (out of studying theologies and building on theory rather than directly adhering to God's Word).

In away it's like the gossip game. One person whispers a phrase to another, and this continues down the line. The lady person recounts a very different take on the original.

Using God's Word as our standard prevents this to a great degree (there will be differences in belief, but these won't be so severe).

 

[kyredneck]

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

If Satan understood

The Serpent understood that the 'seed of the woman' was going to destroy him and immediately began to eliminate the threat by murdering Abel through his seed, Cain, and thus began the Great Red Dragon chasing the Woman down through the millennia to devour her child.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

JonC, do you believe that to be considered in the realm of 'Orthodox Christianity' one has to agree with the first seven Ecumenical Councils --326 to 787 A.D.?

Is that your underlying premise?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you read Church history you will find no Christian attributing Christ's suffering and death to God (except God offering His Son as a sacrifice to die by the powers of this World) until fairly recently.

But if you read the Bible you will.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

The Serpent understood that the 'seed of the woman' was going to destroy him and immediately began to eliminate the threat by murdering Abel through his seed, Cain, and thus began the Great Red Dragon chasing the Woman down through the millennia to devour her child.

Yep. Right up until He appeared and announced His intentions so clearly that Satan could not misunderstand (eg. Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:33-34)..
Before the Christ was born, it was Satan's plan to destroy the messianic line. Then He could not have died on the cross to save His people. Even when He was born, doubtless Satan was urging Herod to destroy Him. But in the wilderness, and afterwards, Satan's great aim was to get our Lord to disobey the Father, because he (Satan) knew that His death upon the cross and subsequent resurrection spelled disaster for him..

 

[kyredneck]

But in the wilderness, and afterwards, Satan's great aim was to get our Lord to disobey the Father

Scripture that shows Satan changed his plan? The references you provided say nothing of that.

(Satan) knew that His death upon the cross and subsequent resurrection spelled disaster for him..

Scripture that shows that Satan knew the cross was his undoing? The references you provided say nothing of that.

 

[kyredneck]

God said:
:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

@Martin Marprelate says:
Nah, didn't happen.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God said:
:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

@kyredneck says:
Nah, didn't happen. the serpent killed Him.

 

[kyredneck]

@kyredneck says:
Nah, didn't happen. the serpent killed Him.

Get it right Martin. Kyredneck says it DID indeed happen, just exactly as God intended and said it would..

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

 

[kyredneck]

But if you read the Bible you will.

...you're the one that needs to be reading your Bible.