Colossians 2, the "nailed it to his cross", what was "it"?

[BobRyan]

The idea of God keeping 'books' is figurative language to help us understand that at the Judgement, every thought, word and deed will be considered (Matthew 12:36)

Well they are literal books but probably not paper and ink -- just as books today can be in the computer (instead of on papyrus, or wood + cotton or ...).

The purpose of such tangible devices is not so God "Can remember" or know something. Rather it is because the judgment is a "teaching moment" and as we see in Daniel 7 - there are myriads and myriads there in the judgment room for that "teaching".

 

[Yeshua1]

Well they are literal books but probably not paper and ink -- just as books today can be in the computer (instead of on papyrus, or wood + cotton or ...).

The purpose of such tangible devices is not so God "Can remember" or know something. Rather it is because the judgment is a "teaching moment" and as we see in Daniel 7 - there are myriads and myriads there in the judgment room for that "teaching".

You do not hold to the heretical doctrine of Investigative Judgement do you?

 

[One Baptism]

You do not hold to the heretical doctrine of Investigative Judgement do you?

Acts 24:14 KJB - But this I confess unto thee, that after the way [Psalms 77:13; John 14:6 KJB] which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Investigative Judgment, is the first phase of the judgment, taking place now. It is typified all throughout the scripture [KJB]:

In Genesis 2 & 3, we see Eve being deceived into sin, though Adam had been warned, and he warning her, and yet Adam followed in the sin, and after this, "... they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day ...", and God [Jesus] investigates, inquiring and asking questions (Genesis 3:9-18; not that God Himself doesn't know, but is for the benefit of the unfallen angels, Adam, Eve, and for us). Gid had already warned them in advance of the sentence for sin/transgression (Genesis 2:17 KJB). Adam and Eve claimed to be followers of God, but yet there was sin, and so God, after investigation, carries out the sentence, even though they had hope (Genesis 3:15 KJB).

In Genesis 4, we see Cain and Abel, which both claimed to worship Gid, but after time passed, Cain decided to have his own Gospel, of works, and eventually became a child of that wicked one, Satan. Both Cain and Abel knew of the Gospel (Genesis 3:15 KJB). Yet Cain killed Abel, who was righteous, Gid comes down and asks, inquires, investigates Cain and the events, before the sentence (its execution) was carried out. This is exactly like a court trial in each instance.

In Genesis 6-9, we see that the world was becoming grossly wicked, and while many claimed to follow God, they were already becoming corrupt through intermarriage with the children of Cain. God sent the Gospel through Seth, Enoch, Methuselah, and finally Noah, that preacher of righteousness. God comes down and sees, investigates, and speaks through Noah, and finally sentence is carried out, after a separation process.

In Genesis 10-11, we see that the people were again in rebellion to God's mercy, promises, grace, live and Gospel, and they attempt to build a tower to heaven (even a spiritual seige tower, climbing up some other way), and God comes down and sees, investigates, and looks, before an execution of judgment, and separation and scattering.

In Genesis 17-19, we see that God had delivered the people of Lot and Sodom, and yet the people of Sodom, in spite of the so great salvation, continued in sin, and so God comes down to see, investigate judge (even the three messengers, like Revelation 14:6-12 KJB), separation, and executes judgment, and even Lot's wife turned back, losing all. Homosexuality had knocked on the door of the church, desiring to enter in (as it was in the days of Noe, and so too now),time is almost up, for the devil attacks the two great twin institutions if Genesis, first Marriage, then Sabbath. Laws are already in effect for the first, then will soon follow (as a twin) the birth of the National Sunday and afterward, anti-Sabbath law.

...ect...

Leviticus 16 & 23, we see that the peoples Israel, and all that claimed to follow JEHOVAH God, was to enter into a specific time called the Day of Atonement, the 10th day of the 7th month (Ethanim), wherein the high priest bore into the Sanctuary, upon the Breastplate of Judgment, the people, represented by the stones. Anyone found not to be in atonement with God, having confessed and forsaken all sin (1 John 3:4 KJB), would be cut off forever, no matter how many times in the year they had brought a daily. There was an investigation, a searching of heart, a separation, and execution of judgment.

In 1 Kings 3, we see Solomon (type of Jesus Christ) having an investigation between two persons (women, type of church) over a dead child (Christ) and a living child (Christ) to see who really loved the child. Solomon investigates in a judgment setting upon His throne, before others, gives a test to prove the true loyalty of the true mother (church, Revelation 12 KJB) and the corruption of the heart of the false mother (Revelation 17 KJB). Sentence is afterward carried out. Reward given.

In Ezra 2, we see the remnant of the peoples Israel coming out of Babylon, and a priestly role was taken, an investigation, to see who could prove their lineage, and those not found in the book, who could not prove their "blood", were cast out of the priesthood, sentence followed.

In Daniel, throughout, but especially in chapter 7, where after Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and during the long phases of Papal Rome, before the total destruction of that Antichrist system, God, in heaven sits, opens the books, before thousands of angels, investigates before execution is carried out after the close of the Gospel. See Daniel 8-12 also.

In Malachi 3, we see God sitting, refining his children, separating silver from dross, before execution of judgment

In the Gospels, God comes down (Jesus), investigates his own people, tests them, and after they stone Stephen (AD34, close of the final and 70th week of Daniel 8 KJB), that very generation perished in AD 70 in execution of the judgment that Jesus said would come.

In Revelation 9:13-15, Revelation 14:6-12 KJB, the investigative judgment goes forward at a very specific date, beginning with the dead professing, while the everlasting Gospel still has time to go forward, soon judgement will pass to the living, at the NSL (Revelation 2, 13, 17 KJB).

More examples are in scripture, this is a sample list across the whole.

After the way which they call heresy ...

Proverbs 28:5 KJB - Evil men understand not judgment ...

 

[One Baptism]

You do not hold to the heretical doctrine of Investigative Judgement do you?

Furthermore, on the three phases of the judgment,

[1] Investigative, with angels,
[2] 1,000 years jugment given to saints, examination
[3] Great White Throne, executive
​

Let's consider Judgment. The Holy Spirit, through Luke, and Paul, clearly detail that the Judgment was yet future [“to come”], for they knew that the Day of Atonement, wherein the Highpriest with the Breastplate of Judgment [Exodus 28:15,29,30 KJB] goes into the Most Holy place to bear the professed people [not the wicked] upon the breast, and to determine who would be “left”, “remain” in the Book of Life and who would be “taken away”, “cut off”, “blotted out of the book of Life”:

Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.​

There are 3/3's of men, per Revelation 9:15, KJB which is a direct reference to Ezekiel 9, in which there are 2 groups “in the city” [written in Heaven, Luke 10:20; Hebrews 12:23], the [1] wheat, sheep, wise, and the [2] tares, goats, foolish, … [Matthew 22:9-13, 24:48-51, 25:3,8,11-12,30 etc] and 1 group already placed outside of the city, the [3] wicked, already condemned [John 3:18; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Hebrews 11:7, etc], which have never professed.

There are differing phases and times of Judgment, per scripture:

First, we consider a “judgment” [“his”] begins at a specific time [“the hour … is come ...”] and goes on while the Everlasting Gospel is preached:

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​

Notice, that in those two texts, we see that there was a specific moment in time in which the “judgment” therein was to begin, and to go forward, and to only continue until a certain time, that is while the “Everlasting Gospel” was still being preached, ie until the Close of Probation [Revelation 22:11; Matthew 25:10, etc], yet once the “mystery of God” [the Gospel] was “finished”, this judgment would be over:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.​

The hour of “his judgment” in Revelation 14 and Daniel 7 & 12, is specific, in that it concerns God over his professed people to separate wheat and chaff, and the angels [which are not omniscient to read the heart] are the ones [ten thousand times ten thousand] searching the books of Heaven [thus this judgment is for them, the 1,000 years judgment for us], including the Book of Life, and only those not “blotted out”, but are rather “found” therein [by search] are to remain and not be “cut off” [Leviticus 23:28-29]:

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

Psalms 7:8 The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psalms 9:4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psalms 9:7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
Psalms 9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.

Psalms 37:33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

Psalms 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Psals 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 3:14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. [For judgment takes place before reward is meted out, Revelation 22:12, etc.]

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.​

 

[One Baptism]

You do not hold to the heretical doctrine of Investigative Judgement do you?

Continuing on the phases of Judgment:

The professed dead, being judged first in this “day of atonement” [beginning October 22 1844]; Daniel 7:9-10:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (first the natural, then the spiritual - 1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB)​

Then at the National [later International] Sunday Law, the 'test' [Revelation 3:10] that comes upon all the living world, does this judgment pass from the dead to the living:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.​

Further we see an “execut[ive] judgment” phase and time, held in two steps [2nd and 3rd advent]:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.​

Furthermore, we see a “judgment” taken up after the close/finishing of the “Everlasting Gospel”, the “mystery of God”, and thus begins at the 1,000 years:

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalms 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psalms 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.​

Notice carefully the connecting verse:

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

[1] “... Until ...” [508/538 to 1798 - 1844, see Daniel 7:21,25, 12:7,11,12, Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luke 21:24, etc]

[2] “... the Ancient of days came ...” [that is, God the Father, came from the Holy [Revelation 4-5] to the Most Holy place of Heaven, see Daniel 7:9-10; in October 22 1844; Daniel 8:13-14,26, Revelation 3:7,8, 9:15, etc up to the second coming and the beginning of the 1,000 years of Revelation 20]

[3] “... and judgment was given to the saints of the most High ...” [during the 1,000 years, per Revelation 20:4, “judgment was given unto them”, see also Isaiah 24]

[4] “... and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” [end of the 1,000 years, the “time” specified, in which we inherit the Earth made new, New Heavens/New Earth, etc]​

Then finally after the 3rd Advent [after the 1,000 years], the “Great White Throne” “judgment”, against all of the wicked who have ever lived [the last step of the executive judgment]:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.('them', context, ie. the lost, finally impenitent)​

There was “no place”, “found” written in the books... and thus they could not be in Heaven, nor earth [Daniel 2:35].

 

[Yeshua1]

Continuing on the phases of Judgment:

The professed dead, being judged first in this “day of atonement” [beginning October 22 1844]; Daniel 7:9-10:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (first the natural, then the spiritual - 1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB)​

Then at the National [later International] Sunday Law, the 'test' [Revelation 3:10] that comes upon all the living world, does this judgment pass from the dead to the living:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.​

Further we see an “execut[ive] judgment” phase and time, held in two steps [2nd and 3rd advent]:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.​

Furthermore, we see a “judgment” taken up after the close/finishing of the “Everlasting Gospel”, the “mystery of God”, and thus begins at the 1,000 years:

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalms 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psalms 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.​

Notice carefully the connecting verse:

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

[1] “... Until ...” [508/538 to 1798 - 1844, see Daniel 7:21,25, 12:7,11,12, Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luke 21:24, etc]

[2] “... the Ancient of days came ...” [that is, God the Father, came from the Holy [Revelation 4-5] to the Most Holy place of Heaven, see Daniel 7:9-10; in October 22 1844; Daniel 8:13-14,26, Revelation 3:7,8, 9:15, etc up to the second coming and the beginning of the 1,000 years of Revelation 20]

[3] “... and judgment was given to the saints of the most High ...” [during the 1,000 years, per Revelation 20:4, “judgment was given unto them”, see also Isaiah 24]

[4] “... and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” [end of the 1,000 years, the “time” specified, in which we inherit the Earth made new, New Heavens/New Earth, etc]​

Then finally after the 3rd Advent [after the 1,000 years], the “Great White Throne” “judgment”, against all of the wicked who have ever lived [the last step of the executive judgment]:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.('them', context, ie. the lost, finally impenitent)​

There was “no place”, “found” written in the books... and thus they could not be in Heaven, nor earth [Daniel 2:35].

You do know the the Investigative judgement heresy of the false prophetess denies the sufficiency of the Cross of Christ!

 

[One Baptism]

...

Matthew 18:21-35 is a parable. If you press the details too far, you miss the message. 'Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king......' 'Like,' not 'identical to.' The Lord Jesus is speaking about an earthly king. earthly kings change there minds; God doesn't. 'For I am the LORD, I do not change; therefore you are not destroyed, O sons of Jacob' (Malachi 3:6). ...

Coming to each point specifically, such as Malachi 3:6 KJB

Malachi 3:6 does not show that God does not change his mind, but speaks of His eternal and unchanging character [His Law, Psalms 40:8; Exodus 33:13-23, 34:1-9; Exodus 20:1-17 KJB].

For God, changing His mind, see Genesis 6:6; Exodus 32:14; Numbers 14:1-45; Judges 2:18; 1 Samuel 15:35; 2 Samuel 24:16; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Psalms 106:45; Jeremiah 26:13,19; Amos 7:3,6; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9,10, etc.

God takes into account, our choices in response to Him, based upon the condition He sets [such as timing, order, obedience/disobedience, etc] - Deuteronomy 28:1-68; Jeremiah 18:8,10 KJB, etc.

Yes, Matthew 18 is given as parable, but this does not negate its specific instruction, in that forgiveness can be revoked, and sins once removed [covered by the blood], can be reinstated. Matthew 18 is in the contextual setting of Leviticus 16 [and 23], the Day of Atonement, when God takes "account" of "His servants".

Simply saying 'It's a parable', doesn't negate the truth that it teaches therein.

Forgiveness of God is directly tied to our own forgiveness of others, Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4 KJB, thus conditional, not unconditional.

Jesus is that "certain" King, even of all the earth, and Matthew 18 is in the conext of Future events. Jesus is the wonderful numberer, the great accountant.

Forgiveness from God gave us, who were forgiven the great debt, time to demonstrate [a probation, like earthly kings mimick] if we would be changed by so great Grace. Names can be, and will be blotted out of the book of life. It is even now happening, Daniel 7:9,10; Revelation 14:6-12 KJB.

Matthew 18; Leviticus 16 & 23, are not the only places which specifically show this, and Leviticus 16 & 23 are no parable, but the type, to the greater antitype now taking place.

2 Peter 2, shows the same, see vss 2:20-23 KJB.

The OSAS type of religion is deadly. Salvation, and abiding in God, standing with God, is eternally relational. Ask the scripture of Lucifer, King Saul, etc. Ask of Adam, David, etc.

 

[One Baptism]

You do know the the Investigative judgement heresy of the false prophetess denies the sufficiency of the Cross of Christ!

Wild assertions, aren't documented evidences. As to the last part, in regards 'the sufficiency of the Cross of Christ', no, those two items, investigative judgment and sister White as messenger of the LORD, do not deny any such thing. But people refuse to diligently read, as over and over again, stated in this thread.

As for sister White, please be specific, in another thread please, but before you do, consider the actual evidences - www.pearltrees.com/awhn/ellen-g-white/id1593382

Cross [Passover] is the all sufficient sacrifice. Now, what needed to happen with that sacrifice, in regards the highpriest [Day of Atonement]?

 

[One Baptism]

... So our Lord says to the lawless ones in Matthew 7:23, 'I never knew you;' not, 'I knew you once and then forgot about you. Again, in 1 John 2:19, we read, 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.' Those whom Christ has redeemed by His blood upon the cross will never perish. They have been given to the Son by the Father and He will not lose even one. ...

Before I respond more fully to this 'point', I would like to ask you, do you agree that Matthew 7:23 & 1 John 2:19, are speaking about two differing types of persons, namely:

[1] professors of Christ Jesus, who profess outwardly unto the end, though they are false in heart, ie hypocrites

[2] professors of Christ Jesus, who once professed, but who for their own choice, in the spite of the grace of God, then chose self over Christ Jesus, and walk away from the relationship, joining the ranks of the overt wicked.​

Do you agree? Yes/No. If yes, I will then continue the response.

 

[Yeshua1]

Wild assertions, aren't documented evidences. As to the last part, in regards 'the sufficiency of the Cross of Christ', no, those two items, investigative judgment and sister White as messenger of the LORD, do not deny any such thing. But people refuse to diligently read, as over and over again, stated in this thread.

As for sister White, please be specific, in another thread please, but before you do, consider the actual evidences - www.pearltrees.com/awhn/ellen-g-white/id1593382

Cross [Passover] is the all sufficient sacrifice. Now, what needed to happen with that sacrifice, in regards the highpriest [Day of Atonement]?

Will there be any christians who will lose their salvation in that investigative judgement then? What about those who rejected the Sabbath and teachings of Ellen White?

 

[Yeshua1]

Wild assertions, aren't documented evidences. As to the last part, in regards 'the sufficiency of the Cross of Christ', no, those two items, investigative judgment and sister White as messenger of the LORD, do not deny any such thing. But people refuse to diligently read, as over and over again, stated in this thread.

As for sister White, please be specific, in another thread please, but before you do, consider the actual evidences - www.pearltrees.com/awhn/ellen-g-white/id1593382

Cross [Passover] is the all sufficient sacrifice. Now, what needed to happen with that sacrifice, in regards the highpriest [Day of Atonement]?

Rge words of the SDA themselvescondemned them as being a fas;e church/false Gospel, sane as that of the RCC!

Seventh-Day Adventists Condemn Themselves by Their Own Words!

• • WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES: The SDA doctrine of salvation documented. Consider carefully the following Seventh-day Adventist statements relative to salvation. While professing to uphold salvation by grace alone through faith alone, they actually redefine this contrary to Apostolic revelation. The result is a false gospel that subtly mixes grace and law.
    
  • From a SDA tract -Deceptively titled Saved By Grace: "Christ says to every man in this world what He said to the rich young ruler: If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments, Matthew 19:17. In other words, THE STANDARD FOR ADMISSION INTO HEAVEN IS A CHARACTER BUILT ACCORDING TO THE TEN SPECIFICATIONS, OR COMMANDMENTS, OF GOD'S LAW. ... He can lift you up to the place where the requirements of the law are met in you. ... THE MASTER BUILDER WILL STAND RIGHT WITH YOU AND IN YOU, AND SEE TO IT PERSONALLY THAT YOUR LIFE COMES UP TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF GOD'S LAW" (Charles T. Everson, Saved By Grace, pp. 45-46).
    
  • From SDA correspondence courses. "It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law, but to bring men up to where they can keep its precepts" (Prophetic Guidance Correspondence Course, Lesson 10, p. 36).
    
  • "Do you want to be a Christian? ... The steps to Christ are few and plain and easy to understand, and we will turn to God's Guidebook now for information. ... Believe; that's the first step toward becoming a Christian. ... the second step is repentance ... repentance is simply being sorry for our sins and putting them away ... the next step in becoming a Christian isconfession ... real repentance and confession mean not only to stop sinning, but to do everything possible to make past wrongs right ... The next step isbaptism, and the proof for that is found in Acts 2:38-39 ... Fifth, obedience through Christ in us ... So we have clearly outlined the steps that we need to take in order to become a Christian: to believe in God, to repent of and to confess our sins, to be baptized, AND TBEY ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. ... He may stumble and fall, but he gets up and presses forward again, determined to overcome by God's enabling power. Such a fall is not counted against him when he repents and asks forgiveness and divine help to live the right life" (New Life Voice of Prophecy Guide, #12).
    
  • "Before Christ comes a second time to take us to His Father's house in heaven above, we must allow Him to conquer sin in our lives. ... Because in this life we have chosen to accept these lovely graces of Christ as our own, the sudden transformation at Jesus' appearing will seal our characters. ... ONLY THOSE WHO LIVE THE JESUS-LIFE CAN BE FREED FROM SIN. ... Jesus counseled the rich man who was seeking eternal life, If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. ... It is Jesus who delivers us from sin but not in sin. WE MUST ACCEPT HIM AND THROUGH HIS POWER IN US BE SEPARATED FROM THE IMPURE, THE UNHOLY, THE DEFILING ALL DISOBEDIENCE TO THE COMMANDMENTS" (New Life Guides, #10).
    
  • From a SDA catechism. " ... We were slaves to sin. Jesus came down and suffered with us, and for us, and delivered us. As we behold Him in His word, and in prayer and meditation, and serve Him in the person of others, WE MAY BE CHANGED MORE AND MORE INTO THE GLORY OF HIS LIKENESS; THEN, IF FAITHFUL, WE SHALL SOMEDAY SEE HIM FACE TO FACE" (Bible Footlights, 1960, p. 17).
    
  • From a SDA doctrinal study. "To whom will God impart immortality? To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality (Rom. 2:7). What shall be their reward? Eternal life (Rom. 2:7). Upon what conditions may men obtain this blessing? Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (1 Tim. 6:12). ... Will a man's final destiny be in accordance with the life he has lived? Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap (Gal. 6:7)" (C.B. Haynes, When A Man Dies, pp. 46-47).
    
  • From one of Ellen White's major works. While discussing the doctrine of Investigative Judgment, Mrs. White presents the following teaching about salvation: "The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are counted worthy of the resurrection of life. ... As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. ... every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. ... all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance ... the work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another" (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, pp. 425, 431).

www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Seventh-Day%20Adventist/hidden.htm

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Before I respond more fully to this 'point', I would like to ask you, do you agree that Matthew 7:23 & 1 John 2:19, are speaking about two differing types of persons, namely:

[1] professors of Christ Jesus, who profess outwardly unto the end, though they are false in heart, ie hypocrites

[2] professors of Christ Jesus, who once professed, but who for their own choice, in the spite of the grace of God, then chose self over Christ Jesus, and walk away from the relationship, joining the ranks of the overt wicked.​

Do you agree? Yes/No. If yes, I will then continue the response.

They are two different types of response to Christ: the one makes a confession of faith but denies Him in his life. The other makes a confession of faith and then openly departs from it.

My point is that both types of person never belonged to Christ.

The OSAS type of religion is deadly.

I agree with you. While there is a sense in which it is true (John 10:27-28), it falls far short of the truth. The Puritans spoke of the Perseverance of the Saints, which is much better. If one doesn't persevere, it is evidence that one is not a saint. Those who make a profession of faith and then suppose that they can live like the devil were never Christians and one day they will hear the dread words of Matthew 7:23 pronounced to them. God writes His laws on the hearts of believers.

I will come back on your post #67 in a few days. It raises some very important points with reference to the Immutability of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

They are two different types of response to Christ: the one makes a confession of faith but denies Him in his life. The other makes a confession of faith and then openly departs from it.

My point is that both types of person never belonged to Christ.


I agree with you. While there is a sense in which it is true (John 10:27-28), it falls far short of the truth. The Puritans spoke of the Perseverance of the Saints, which is much better. If one doesn't persevere, it is evidence that one is not a saint. Those who make a profession of faith and then suppose that they can live like the devil were never Christians and one day they will hear the dread words of Matthew 7:23 pronounced to them. God writes His laws on the hearts of believers.

I will come back on your post #67 in a few days. It raises some very important points with reference to the Immutability of God.

The real dangerous form of OSAS is when those holding to eternal security some times stop right there, for if they keep teaching on what is to accompanying being saved, and how we should mature now, would safeguard it. the problem is mire to me in its application than its theology!

 

[Yeshua1]

Before I respond more fully to this 'point', I would like to ask you, do you agree that Matthew 7:23 & 1 John 2:19, are speaking about two differing types of persons, namely:

[1] professors of Christ Jesus, who profess outwardly unto the end, though they are false in heart, ie hypocrites

[2] professors of Christ Jesus, who once professed, but who for their own choice, in the spite of the grace of God, then chose self over Christ Jesus, and walk away from the relationship, joining the ranks of the overt wicked.​

Do you agree? Yes/No. If yes, I will then continue the response.

What about post# 71?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Coming to each point specifically, such as Malachi 3:6 KJB

Malachi 3:6 does not show that God does not change his mind, but speaks of His eternal and unchanging character [His Law, Psalms 40:8; Exodus 33:13-23, 34:1-9; Exodus 20:1-17 KJB].

For God, changing His mind, see Genesis 6:6; Exodus 32:14; Numbers 14:1-45; Judges 2:18; 1 Samuel 15:35; 2 Samuel 24:16; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Psalms 106:45; Jeremiah 26:13,19; Amos 7:3,6; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9,10, etc.

God takes into account, our choices in response to Him, based upon the condition He sets [such as timing, order, obedience/disobedience, etc] - Deuteronomy 28:1-68; Jeremiah 18:8,10 KJB, etc.

Thank you for listing the various texts where God appears to change His mind. I note that you did not list the texts which show that He does not change His mind. Here are a few: Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Job 23:13; Psalm 33:11; Romans 11:29; Hebrews 6:17 etc.

So how can we reconcile these two lists of Scriptures, because it is impossible that they could in reality contradict one another. We even have seemingly opposing texts in the same chapter.
1 Samuel 15:10-11. 'Now the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, "I greatly regret that I have set Paul up as king, for He has turned away from following Me."'
1 Samuel 15:29. 'And also the Strength of Israel will not lie or relent. For He is not a man that He should relent.'
The word that the NKJV translates as 'regret' and 'relent' and which the KJV translates as 'repent' is the same in both verses, nacham.

So how do we square these verses? The explanation is very simple. When the Scripture speaks of God, it very often accommodates itself to our understanding. Thus, although He is 'Spirit' (John 4:24), He is frequently described as having eyes, ears, hands etc. He speaks of Himself as 'waking' (Psalm 78:65) and 'rising early' (Jeremiah 7:13 etc.) although we are told that He 'neither slumbers nor sleeps' (Psalm 121:4). We read that God 'rested' on the sixth day of creation, although Isaiah 40:28 tells us that He 'neither faints nor is weary.' When God institutes a change in His dealings with men, He sometimes describes it as 'repenting,' but the term is an anthropomorphism-- God is representing His actions in terms that simple people can understand. But when God raised Joseph as his father's favourite, then had him sold into slavery, then thrown into prison and finally raised up as Pharaoh's right-hand man, He was not constantly changing His mind; He had one plan with several phases (cf. Genesis 50:10).

God knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) and declares it. Men change their minds due to lack of foresight, lack of counsel or lack of power. God is subject to none of these things. He is omniscient and omnipotent, so there is never any need for Him to revise His plans. 'The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations' (Psalm 33:11).

 

[BobRyan]

You do not hold to the heretical doctrine of Investigative Judgement do you?

Do you still hold the the false doctrine of "proof by name calling"? A left over from the dark ages.

Please join us in the 21st century - "proof by name calling" is dead in this century.

Two simple questions for you when you are done with you in-depth study of "name calling"

1. You did or did not actually "read" Daniel 7??

2. You did or did not actually "read" Romans 2??.j

BTW - just how far are we supposed to stray from the actual subject of this thread?

 

[One Baptism]

... the actual subject of this thread ...

What was thoroughly presented and documented in regards the phrase, "the handwriting of ordinances", was given in the following:

What do we see of this "hand" "writ[ing]" of "ordinances"?

By the “hand of Moses”: Leviticus 8:36, 10:11, 26:46; Numbers 4:37,45,49, 9:23, 10:13, 15:23, 16:40, 27:23, 36:13; Joshua 14:2, 20:2, 21:2,8, 22:9; Judges 3:4; 1 Kings 8:53,56; 2 Chronicles 33:8, 35:6; Nehemiah 9:14.

...
2 Chronicles 33:8 KJB Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
...​

&

Do we see that the "book of the Law" "of Moses", written by "Moses", given them by God to obey "all", placed outside [in the side] of the ark as a "witness against" ...

Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.";

Colossians 2:14 "handwriting of ordinances";

Ephesians 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances";

Hebrews 9:1 "... also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.";

Hebrews 9:10 "... meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances ...";

Ezekiel 43:18 "... These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon."

Luke 1:6 "... walking in all the commandments and ordinances ...";

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.";

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."​

… against them because of their promises [Exodus 19 and Exodus 24]. This is not the same things as the Ten Commandments written by God Himself, placed in the ark itself.

The Greek, trans. lit., [again for those that like to play the Greek game]:

exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw​

The words "cheirografon toiV dogmasin" never mean "certificate of debt" in scripture [and that is not a literal equivalency, and even more than a 'dynamic', but truly someone's own private [incorrect] paraphrase]

cheirografon – G5498 N-ASN

toiV – G3588 T-DPN

dogmasin – G1378 N-DPN​

The word "cheirografon" literally means "cheiro" [hand] & "grafon" [writing]:

See "cheiro" [translated as “hand” 89 times or “hands” 90 times, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5495&t=KJB

See "grafon" [translated as “written” 121 times, or “write” 50 times, or “wrote” 21 times, or “describeth” 1 time or “writing” 1 time, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1125&t=KJB​

And do not merely take any concordance definition, but simply utilize the concordance to look at all the Bible passages to see how the word is defined and used in scripture itself [as per Isaiah 28:10; 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB, etc]. Concordance, Lexicons, even Dictionaries can all be incorrect on a scriptural word, since those sources bring in definitions from outside of scripture, such as Greek [pagan] literature, etc [See sister Gail Riplinger's monumental works, “New Age Bible Versions” & also “In Awe of thy Word”, & also “Hazardous Materials”, among others].

The word "toiV" can have several uses in scripture [KJB], and in this instance means "of" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3588&t=KJB

The word "dogmasin" literally means "dogma" [see Websters 1828 for helpful def., but always remember to define scripture by scripture] which comes to be:

[1] "decrees" [Luke 2:1; Acts 16:4, 17:7] and,

[2] "ordinances" [Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1378&t=KJB​

The related word in the very same passage of Colossians 2, is "dogmatizesthe":

Colossians 2:20 KJB Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,​

Yet we know that the Ten Commandments are not of this earth/world, not carnal, but of Heaven, spiritual:

Exodus 20:22 KJB And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Romans 7:14 KJB For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
​

[3] What is the definition of sin [1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23, etc] that Paul utilizes in the very context?

These have not been directly addressed, yet.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you still hold the the false doctrine of "proof by name calling"? A left over from the dark ages.

Please join us in the 21st century - "proof by name calling" is dead in this century.

Two simple questions for you when you are done with you in-depth study of "name calling"

1. You did or did not actually "read" Daniel 7??

2. You did or did not actually "read" Romans 2??.j

BTW - just how far are we supposed to stray from the actual subject of this thread?

See post # 71!

 

[One Baptism]

... the actual subject of this thread ...

Not only the last posts - Colossians 2, the "nailed it to his cross", what was "it"?

but, furthermore, getting back, even moreso to the OP posts, the following, in addition to my last response, was not directly addressed either, in any part of this thread; being the direct connections between Colossians 2, Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9, as demonstrated here:

Colossians 2:11 KJB In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 KJB Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 KJB And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses:​

See the like parallel, in Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:1 KJB And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2 KJB Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 KJB Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

Thus the similar phrases and relation to them all as found in:

[1] Colossians 2:14, “ordinances”,

[2] Ephesians 2:15, “in ordinances”

[3] Hebrews 9:1,10, “carnal ordinances”​

Also similar language is used in:

[1] Colossians 2:17, ”of things to come”

[2] Ephesians 2:7, “ages to come”

[3] Hebrews 9:11, “good things to come”.​

In quoting Colossians 2:14, as many do:

Colossians 2:14 KJB - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​

The context reveals, not the blotting out of sins, but of the blotting out of the "handwriting of ordinances".

[sub Q.] Where is the word sin used here in regards to the "blotting out" in vs 14?

It is not found at all in vs 14 and the "blotting out" does not reference the sins of vs 13, but is specifically identified in vs 14, the "handwriting of ordinances".

The word "sins" is found in vs 11,13, but it speaks only of sins forgiven [covered], which may be demonstrated upon request is not the same thing as sins "blotted out", for it is obvious even at the first, that sins which are blotted out, need not be covered, and that which is covered, must yet be dealt with totally to be blotted out. According to Psalms 77:13 KJB, the sanctuary is a complete system of salvation/redemption, not merely a single act, but a process with multiple parts needing to be accomplished/finished, like as unto a building, laying a foundation [Cross, the foundation was finished, the cornerstone laid], then building with stones, and finally the last portion. More on this in a later portion.

Furthermore in vs 20, we see the word "ordinances" again used in connection with "worldly" human things, "the rudiments of the world" and "subject to ordinances", which are listed in vs 21-23, – 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

What are these handwritten ordinances and where may they be found in scripture? As already noted before, these are the very "ordinances" that may be found in Ephesians 2:15 and in Hebrews 9 and in the OT itself:

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; Ephesians 2:15

Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Hebrews 9:1

[Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:10​

These are the carnal ordinances, even the law of commandments in ordinances, even the handwritten ordinances [by Moses] imposed upon Israel back in the books of Moses. It is not anyone ones sins here, for these "ordinances" were for the "worldly sanctuary" to do its service, and for sacrifices, etc, see also Ezekiel 43:18:

And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These [are] the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon. Ezekiel 43:18​

Luke 1:6 makes mention again of these, as other passages:

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."​

These refer to things, even as found in Numbers 9:3 KJB:

Numbers 9:3 KJB In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.​

In fact, when looking at the context of Colossians 2, in the handwritten [by Moses] “ordinances” thereof, we read nothing of the Ten Commandments, but only of things pertaining to the earthly sanctuary and its services, in carnal things, that came afterwards under the Levitical priesthood.

See also for further detail:

[1] "rites" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H2708&t=KJB

[2] "ceremonies" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4941&t=KJB​

and more, but what was against the "us"?

Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

And why was it a witness against the "thee"? Because if they broke their promise, the "curse" would come upon them. More on this "curse" in a bit.

Because of their promise they had made, which turned out to be faulty promises. They broke their side of the covenant made in Exodus 19 and 24, the words Moses are written upon parchment [scroll, lambskin, etc] and sprinkled with blood.

Their agreement, the promises "to do all...we will do" [Exodus 19 & 24; “fault with them”; Hebrews 8:8 KJB], their covenant, which they brake, was nailed to the cross. In so nullifying that "old", the 'New' [really the Everlasting] was ratified by the blood of Jesus the true sacrifice.

[4] Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

Private interpretations and/or private translations of Colossians 2, hold 0 [ZERO] weight. For anyone to simply assert that "the handwriting of ordinances" is the 'sin debt', or 'certificate of debt [of sin]', none of which is represented in the Koine Greek [at all], nor defined as such in all of scripture [KJB], is folly, and very, very dangerous, according to Psalms 77:13 KJB, for such teaching negates the specific events, seasons and timing that Christ Jesus was to fulfill in regards Leviticus 23 & 16 & Hebrews [in regards the Real Tabernacle, the Heavenly Sanctuary above], & Revelation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not only the last posts - Colossians 2, the "nailed it to his cross", what was "it"?

but, furthermore, getting back, even moreso to the OP posts, the following, in addition to my last response, was not directly addressed either, in any part of this thread; being the direct connections between Colossians 2, Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9, as demonstrated here:

Private interpretations and/or private translations of Colossians 2, hold 0 [ZERO] weight. For anyone to simply assert that "the handwriting of ordinances" is the 'sin debt', or 'certificate of debt [of sin]', none of which is represented in the Koine Greek [at all], nor defined as such in all of scripture [KJB], is folly, and very, very dangerous, according to Psalms 77:13 KJB, for such teaching negates the specific events, seasons and timing that Christ Jesus was to fulfill in regards Leviticus 23 & 16 & Hebrews [in regards the Real Tabernacle, the Heavenly Sanctuary above], & Revelation.

See point# 71!