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Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
- Thread starter rstrats
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
Well, Mark 15:42 reads, ". . . And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath. . . ." A number of problems with your claim. First, Jewish days begin with their evening. Jesus was already dead when that evening began. It was the beginning of the Perperation day, our Thursday evening. The Geneva Bible translates it this way, "And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath). That still does not help your case.
So then the Esther account isn't an example of where at least a part of a daytime or at least a part of a night time couldn't have occurred.
Too many negatives for my comprehension.
Rather, the Esther account *is* an example of where at least part of a daytime or part of a nighttime *could * have occurred.
Actually it does help my case but does not help yours.
You wrote:
"Well, Mark 15:42 reads, ". . . And now when the even was come, because it was the *preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath. . . ."
Preparation for Sabbath Day was on Friday, and on Friday leaders of the Jews wanted crucify Jesus before Holy Holiday of Sabbath starts, and they have to do it before darkness on Friday, because when first star appears on the sky it can be considered as the beginning of a new day, and if it happens on Friday, this would be already the Sabbath Day, and Sabbath Day will be defiled by execution.
You wrote:
"It was the beginning of the Perperation day, our Thursday evening."
You stated yourself in Mark 15.42 that "preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath "
The day before the Sabbath is Friday and not the Thursday.
And you stated again: "The Geneva Bible translates it this way, "And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath). "
It seems to me you contradict yourself here.
Exodus 12.5-6
5.Your lamb shall be without blemish a year old male, you may take it from the ship or from the goats.
6.You shall keep it until the fourteenth day (second Sabbath of the week) of this month, then the whole assembled congregation of Israel shall slaughter it at twilight ("at twilight" means Friday night when first star appears, which will indicate Sabbath Day, it was the Day of Passover).
Jesus always compared to the Lamb of GOD, and as Guilt Sacrifice.
If Jesus had not sacrificed on the Sabbath Day as the lamb of Passover mentioned in Exodus 12.5-6, the prophesies about Him would not be fulfilled and He would not be considered as Messiah.
This is why Jesus was sacrificed on Passover Day as it was done with the ordinary lamb of Passover.
Jesus took on Himself to be a Lamb of Passover as Salvation from the wrath of GOD and the Guilt Sacrifice for sins of humanity, for which the lambs and goats have been sacrificed on the Passover and Atonement Days, including Sabbath Days.
John 19.31-33
31.The Jews, because it was the day of preparation (Friday), so that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath, that Sabbath was a high Day (Passover Day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32.The soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man, and of the other man who was crucified with Him,
33.but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead..."
But because darkness fell very early on Friday when Jesus was already crucified, the darkness shows the stars indicating the beginning of the Sabbath Day, and at that moment Jesus died.
So the Sabbath was defiled, but prophesies about Christ have been fulfilled.
The count of time of death is different from Bible to Bible.
Matthew 27.45-46
45.Now, from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land, until the ninth hour.
46.And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying, "Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani?" that is, "My GOD, My GOD, why have You forsaken Me?" (KSB, Gideons, Russian).
45.From noon on, darkness came over the whole land, until three o'clock Jesus cried with a loud voice, "E'll, E'll, lema' sa-bach-'tha-ni?" that is "My GOD, My GOD, why have you forsaken Me?" (NRSV, GNB).
Mark 15.25
25.And it was the third hour when they crucified Him. (KSB, Gideons, Russian).
25.It was nine o'clock in the morning when they crucified Him. (NRSV, GNB).
Luke 23.44
44.And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, (KSB, Gideons, Russian).
44.It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. (NRSV, GNB).
37818
Well-Known Member
There are a number of issues with your arguments.
The Jewish days begin at sundown, aka evening. My argument regarding Mark 15:42 was it was the start aka evening of the Perparation. Our Thursday evening. Answer this first, then I will deal with your other arguments.
Alex2165,
re: "The day before the Sabbath is Friday and not the Thursday."
That is an issue for a different topic.
re: "If Jesus had not sacrificed on the Sabbath Day as the lamb of Passover mentioned in Exodus 12.5-6, the prophesies about Him would not be fulfilled and He would not be considered as Messiah."
That is an issue for a different topic.
re: "Matthew 27.45...Now, from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land, until the ninth hour."
I
That is an issue for a different topic if you're suggesting that that counts for one of the three nights.
re: "The day before the Sabbath is Friday and not the Thursday."
That is an issue for a different topic.
re: "If Jesus had not sacrificed on the Sabbath Day as the lamb of Passover mentioned in Exodus 12.5-6, the prophesies about Him would not be fulfilled and He would not be considered as Messiah."
That is an issue for a different topic.
re: "Matthew 27.45...Now, from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land, until the ninth hour."
I
That is an issue for a different topic if you're suggesting that that counts for one of the three nights.
And remember, the someone new needs to be someone who thinks the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
37818 already knows what I am going to say and yet he still doesn't want to hear it, for some reason.
And what is that?
It's that you fellows are 'taking a wrong turn at the Sabbath'.
We'll try to find those posts without having to rehash it all, ad infinitum.
37818
Well-Known Member
No place in the Bible anywhere are the Passover "first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation" are either ever called the Sabbath. Two of those and only one seventh day Sabbath during the Passover week.
And the Jewish Preparation Day begins on our Thursday evening and ends with the seventh day Sabbath our Friday evening.
And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Gentlemen please, we do not need to get in a protracted disagreement over this.
What does the word of God tell us? What did Jesus tell us {for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth} Matthew 12:40
Do any of you think He was wrong?
This has been a discussion that has gone on for many years and many books have been written to prove how to count the three days and nights. And yet the arguments go on.
What we need to know is that Christ fulfilled the requirement and rose on the third day. Your arguments are like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The answer does not matter.
Christ was crucified, buried and rose the third day that all that will trust in Him can be saved.
What does the word of God tell us? What did Jesus tell us {for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth} Matthew 12:40
Do any of you think He was wrong?
This has been a discussion that has gone on for many years and many books have been written to prove how to count the three days and nights. And yet the arguments go on.
What we need to know is that Christ fulfilled the requirement and rose on the third day. Your arguments are like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The answer does not matter.
Christ was crucified, buried and rose the third day that all that will trust in Him can be saved.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
John 19:31.
Leviticus 23:
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
[3] Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
[4] These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
[5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
[6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
[7] In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[8] But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Leviticus 23:5; In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
This passover is, of course, a "Jewish Preparation Day" and falls on "the fourteenth day of the first month".
And, since "the fourteenth day of the first month", cannot and, therefore, does not always fall on the same day of the week each year, so this passover/Preparation Day, "the fourteenth day of the first month", is prohibited from being assumed that it could always begin "on our Thursday evening and ends with the seventh day Sabbath our Friday evening", as if every Sabbath were the weekly Sabbath, which does begin "on our Thursday evening and ends with the seventh day Sabbath our Friday evening".
Also, NOT ONLY is "the first day ye shall have an holy convocation", "on the fifteenth day of the same" (first) "month" CALLED A SABBATH DAY HERE IN THE BIBLE, in John 19:31, where calls "the first day, an holy convocation", "the fifteenth day of the same" (first) "month" a "sabbath day" saying "that sabbath day was an high day";
THIS SABBATH, "the first day, an holy convocation", "the fifteenth day of the same" (first) "month" cannot and, therefore, does not always fall on the same day of the week each year, so this "holy convocation", "the first day, an holy convocation", "the fifteenth day of the same" (first) "month" CALLED a "sabbath day" saying "that sabbath day was an high day" is ALSO prohibited from being assumed that it could always fall on a Saturday.
To review: "In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation:" is CALLED A SABBATH, in John 19:31;
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day",
and, in addition THAT SABBATH "(for that sabbath day was an high day,)"
DOES NOT ALWAYS FALL ON A SATURDAY, EACH YEAR;
(LEVITICUS 23 REFERENCE: "In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation:", "...on the fifteenth day of the same month"), WHICH, AGAIN, cannot and, therefore, does not always fall on the same day of the week each year, so this "holy convocation", "sabbath", is prohibited from being assumed that it could always fall on a Saturday "(for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
John 19:31, in purple.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I'm not new, so I won't give anyone the assumption that "the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection", because it didn't and so there is no reason to look for a figure of speech to attempt a gyration that tries to massage 72 hours down to 'fit' into a wrong guess as to what day of the week Jesus was crucified:
I will give them this as their best shot at exaserbaiting a figure of speech, the same as some think they have to twist the word of God into knots, or invent a new way that math works where 12 hrs. 1 min. = 24 hrs., etc.
Just because this looks like it would be the opposite of what they need that is no reason to believe that is something that would stop a 'Bible Student', before.
Maybe, they can imagine an 'Anti-Synecdoche': "Synecdoche refers to a figure of speech in which the word for a part of something is used to refer to the thing itself, or less commonly, when the word for a thing itself is used to refer to part of that thing."
"A classic example of synecdoche is the use of the term hands to mean “workers” (as in “all hands on deck”), or the noun sails to mean “ships.”
A "synecdoche is what we hear when someone uses wheels to refer to a car (“she showed off her new wheels”) or threads to refer to clothing (“a new set of threads”)"
If that somehow gets them anywere quick, they think, then it will spare them from searching a couple of hundred figures of speech in a despsrate panic from a reference like this:
Figures of Speech Used in the Bible
By Bullinger, E. W.
I will give them this as their best shot at exaserbaiting a figure of speech, the same as some think they have to twist the word of God into knots, or invent a new way that math works where 12 hrs. 1 min. = 24 hrs., etc.
Just because this looks like it would be the opposite of what they need that is no reason to believe that is something that would stop a 'Bible Student', before.
Maybe, they can imagine an 'Anti-Synecdoche': "Synecdoche refers to a figure of speech in which the word for a part of something is used to refer to the thing itself, or less commonly, when the word for a thing itself is used to refer to part of that thing."
"A classic example of synecdoche is the use of the term hands to mean “workers” (as in “all hands on deck”), or the noun sails to mean “ships.”
A "synecdoche is what we hear when someone uses wheels to refer to a car (“she showed off her new wheels”) or threads to refer to clothing (“a new set of threads”)"
If that somehow gets them anywere quick, they think, then it will spare them from searching a couple of hundred figures of speech in a despsrate panic from a reference like this:
Figures of Speech Used in the Bible
By Bullinger, E. W.