So, anyone or any creed that doesn't go along with your nuance of Jesus as 'sole creator' is a denier or heretical.
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Common ground and points of disagreement.
- Thread starter 37818
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So, anyone or any creed that doesn't go along with your nuance of Jesus as 'sole creator' is a denier or heretical.
Let me get this straight. Is this your nuance? That God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not create? Only God the Son created?
37818
Well-Known Member
So you think if the Son is 'sole' Creator that some how makes the Father and the Holy Spirit not to be God? John 1:3, John 1:10, KJV, NKJV, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:16-17, why say what you think cannot actually mean that? Why was He maintaining creation while He was on the cross? Hebrews 1:3.
You ever hear the phrase 'making a mountain out of a mole hill'? 'Straining gnats'? 'Splitting hairs'?
I think you just like to argue.
37818
Well-Known Member
So do you think I should not defend what I believe? But it is ok for others.
37818
Well-Known Member
Maybe. If it is a denial of the Son's role in creation. A failure to acknowledge the Son's role is problematic.
37818
Well-Known Member
@kyredneck,
You object to characterising the Son's role in creation as a "sole Creator" on behalf of God the Father. How do you think it should be characterised? John 1:3, John 1:10, Colossians 1:16-17, ,KJV Ephesians 3:9.
You object to characterising the Son's role in creation as a "sole Creator" on behalf of God the Father. How do you think it should be characterised? John 1:3, John 1:10, Colossians 1:16-17, ,KJV Ephesians 3:9.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Where does the Scripture tell us that Jesus created the universe on behalf of the Father? Which Scripture says that Jesus alone created everything? "Without Him nothing was made" means that nothing exists that God did not create. We know that Jesus is God, just as the Holy Spirit is God. We know that all "members" of the Trinity were present at creation. What do you think the Father was doing? You are reading things into the Scripture.
[EDIT] If failure to acknowledge the Son's role in creation is problematic, what about failure to acknowledge the Father's role in creation? The "Sole Creator" is God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). By comparison, let's look at who raised Jesus from the dead. Was it the Father (Acts 2:24, Galatians 1:1), the Son (John 2:19, John 10:18), or the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-5)? Of course, all are correct.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Again, Ephesians 3:9, ". . . God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: . . ." So why do you not understand "all things" to include the whole universe? Also Colossians 1:16, ". . . For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: . . ." And Hebrews 1:2, ". . . by whom also he made the worlds; . . ." With , Hebrews 1:3, ". . . upholding all things by the word of his power, . . ." Not some but all. The Son is being pointed out exclusively.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Other passages show God (the Father) as the One who created everything. This is not a question that affects one's salvation, and we are just going around in circles. I am tired of debating this topic with you. May God's Blessings be upon you and yours, Brother. Adios.
37818
Well-Known Member
Where is God explicitly as the "Father" spoken of as Creator and not through the Son? Otherwise I understand all OT references of creation to be none other than the Son. At issue is the identify of God and how and why God has always had the Son.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 3:9, 1 Timothy 4:4, Revelation 4:11. God's identity has never been at question. God has always existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why is it so important to you to convince me that Jesus alone created everything?
37818
Well-Known Member
Not what I ever said. Jesus is the man.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I don't believe Jesus ever taught that He alone created the universe, except in the context that "He" includes the rest of the Godhead. Again, not a major doctrine. If you want to believe that neither the Father nor the Son were involved in the creation, that's up to you. I believe all three were present in the creation. Who really cares? While it's made for a long discussion, it really doesn't make any difference. To return to the theme of this thread, it's more about how we interpret the Scriptures.
he is also very God!