thjplgvp said:
Aresman,
First of all I appreciate all your work in compiling the info included in your posts and I did read each of them. Not to scorn your effort nor the spirit in which the info was given I would like to ask this question.
In a barter system as seen in the Old Testament in comparison to the New Testament would it not be logical to move from farming and herding to a current system of finance? I am old enough to remember my grand parents trading livestock and feed as marketable commodities but today we barter with money.
If you are a pastor would it be convenient for you to barter goods given you by the church family or would it be convenient for them to give money?
The world has changed from yesteryear and though money was not specifically called for what was called for was commonly accepted by all in normal every day barter or they could not have sold it and the people would not have eaten it.
I appreciate what you said. I can tell you that this is the point that
everyone uses to justify to me a monetary Biblical tithe. However, some questions arise for me.
1. Was farming the
only practice done in Israel throughout the Old (and New) Testaments? We know there was tentmaking, carpentry, tayloring, smithing, etc. It would be clear from the specifics of the tithe laws that none of these occupations tithed. It was only the farmers who tithed. Now, maybe the other professions helped out with things, like transportation, tools, etc. This to me makes the Biblical tithe miles away from an
income.
2. Was the tithe over
income or
increase? We know it was
annual: based on the harvest season. If a farmer started with one hundred cows, and made an
increase of fifty cows, the tithe would be five cows. If during the year the outgo in supplies were greater than the input, the farmer likely would not be required to tithe. To me, this more or less places a tithe on the "profit" or "revenue" rather than the income.
3. We know that tithe laws made reference to money for certain regulations, so we know that the people had and used money. However, money was not titheable, but
only crops and livestock were; no clothes, tents, tools, etc. How does this correlate to today with money?
4. It seems apparent that the tithe laws were specific to the
nation of Israel, as were the dietary laws (no pork or shrimp, etc.), and the debt-release laws. Why do we try to apply a
form of this one law to the church today, yet totally disregard the others immediately surrounding it? The tithe laws were God's form of tax and welfare system for the theocratic nation of Israel in
some sense like what we already pay in taxes to our government (only ours is not a
religious state).
thjplgvp said:
What do you suggest that we teach today considering less than 7% (according to Barna) of church goers give any thing let alone a 'tithe'?
Is it not proper to teach minimum responsibility and name 10% as that minimum not as a command per se but as a responsibility? Was not the care of the Levites, the Levitical cities and the priests the responsibility of Israel? And is not the care of the local church and the leadership in that church the responsibility of its members? Is not the laborer worthy of his hire?
If I teach tithing is it sin or is it in the spirit of teaching folks how to be responsible?
I do not see a 10% "principle" applied anywhere in the New Testament. I don't think there is a
minimum that can properly be justified in Scripture.
What I
do believe to be the command for the church is called
cheerful giving.
II Cor 9:6-8
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
There is no limit (upper or lower) to church giving, but that it should be done cheerfully, knowing that what you sow is what you reap, and the more you so to the spirit, the more you'll reap bountifully from the spirit.
Pastors today constantly preach to the congregation about living by faith; yet they can't do that with regards to cheerful giving.
They should also be able to live by faith knowing that their needs will be met from Spirit-led believers who give cheerfully with no limitations.
If more is needed, the preacher should give a sermon about cheerful giving. Present the need; present how much is needed; and motivate the people to give cheerfully, encouraging about the blessing received from fulfilling this need. Believe me, it is
much easier to give if you are told you would be blessed for giving bountifully, rather than "if you don't give 10% of your income to this church (and no where else) then you are robbing God!" I believe that God would not let the truth of His Word return void. If Spirit-led believers see a need and have the liberty to fulfill it, they
will and with
more than was needed, if they don't know how much each other are giving.
Since I don't see any Scriptural justification for a so-called chuch "tithe" mandate, I don't think it would be Scripturally used effectively, but New Testament cheerful giving would. I hope this helps and makes sense.
raying:
