Comparative analysis: Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4

[Me4Him]

When Jesus returns "NNE" goes to heaven, both them and Jesus stay here on the earth for the MK, this is the "First resurrection", which means they are "Back on earth, alive".

In the rapture, they "leave the earth" going to Heaven, where Jesus is today.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,

I will come again, (In the air)

and receive you unto myself; (No Angels)

that where I am, (Heaven)

there ye may be also. (return to Heaven)

I'd suggest learning the difference between a "rapture" and a "Resurrection", if they were the same, one word could describe both coming, but it can't because they are "different".

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

You have failed to show that the rapture and the
resurrection, as well as the gathering of all the
elect by Jesus and the angels, "do not occur in the same time-frame". Your reference, John 14:3, does NOT reveal the Rapture & FIRST RESURRECTION of Rev.20:4-5 are separated by seven years!!!!

Today, 1:08 AM, you affirmed that Jesus and the Angels cannot “gather the elect together above in the same time frame”! Both parts of this gathering occur “after great tribulation when Christ comes WITH the saints in heaven and FOR the Saints on earth. The word “Episunago” means to “gather together above” and, by Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31 and John 6:38-40, this gathering takes place upon and “out of the 4 winds” by Jesus and the angels on the last day!

Today, at 11:16 AM, you try to prop-up your theory with John 14:3 to prove the rapture and resurrection ALSO are not in the same time-frame. You argue that the rapture takes the Church saints from earth before the Tribulation and they live in heaven’s mansions for seven years until Jesus brings them back from heaven at the “first resurrection” to reign with Him on the earth.

You think ALL the Saints will dwell in the
New Jerusalem in heaven for 7 years before they begin to reign on the earth for 1000 years.

In one day, today, you change the subject of denying that Jesus and the angels “gather the elect together above” in the same time-frame AFTER the tribulation to that of claiming the saints dwell in heaven before the “first resurrection” can include those “beheaded for Christ during the Tribulation. Is this your way of “proving” the Elect are gathered to heaven by Jesus before the Tribulation while Trib-Martyrs must wait 7 years to be “raised up afterward”!!

To get the “big picture”, you must first look
at what happens to the Tribulation Martyrs at
the “first resurrection” of Rev.20:4-5 AFTER the Great Tribulation. They will not arise NOR
begin to “reign with Christ for 1000 years” until Jesus raises up "all believers on the same last day” as He teaches in John 6:38-40.

A primary principle of hermeneutics is that Jesus cannot “contradict” Himself. He will
“raise up all believers (every one) and gather them together above on the same last day! John 6:38-40. Jesus said this is His “Father’s will for every believer”.

You cannot insert 7 years between the rapture of the Church and the First Resurrection by using John 14:3. Only at Christ’s Presence will all believers arise and begin to reign with Christ for 1000 years! Rev.20:4-5.

To complete the “big picture”, my friend, you must realize that those who are beheaded and
“come out of the great tribulation” will reign with Christ for 1000 years and will dwell in the Mansions “prepared by Him” while those having
“overcome to the End will reign with Christ
on the earth for 1000 years.

The martyrs too are “changed into His likeness” at the first resurrection; but they alone will “serve God in the mansions of the Temple in Heaven for 1000 years”! Survivors to the End will reign on the earth!! Rev.2:25-27.

The Martyrs will win the highest possible reward attainable by the Church. They will have the name of the New Jerusalem and “serve God in heaven” for 1000 years before the rest of the Church dwells therein. Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17.

You cannot set the timing of the rapture and
the resurrection, which occurs on the same day,
by using John 14:3. This verse reveals the
Martyrs alone will "serve God in heaven and be
shepherded by the Lamb" while the rest of the
Body of Christ "reigns on the earth"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Mel, about all I can tell ya is to stick around and see how it turns out.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Your final conclusion is so revealing for lack
of an anwer:
Quote:
_______________________________________________
"Mel, about all I can tell ya is to stick around and see how it turns out".
_______________________________________________
This is not your normal type of response. You
obviously have not yet had time to react to the
fact that "Trib-Martyrs will win the highest possible reward attainable by the Church. They will have the name of the New Jerusalem and will
“serve God in heaven” for 1000 years before the rest of the Church dwells in the New Jerusalem. Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17.

Perhaps you should wonder why God's Purpose for
the Millennium includes His 1000-Year reward in heaven for those who are "beheaded for their witness to Christ" and not just for "Church Overcomers to the End" who will "rule on the earth with Christ" at the same time. Rev.20:4.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Mel, When Jesus returns to the earth he brings "ALL" his saints, to live and reign with him for the 1000 years.

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Are you a Calvinist or do you understand "ALL"???

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

My friend, I submit that YOU are the one who
doesn't understand the word "ALL".

I. When Jesus descends from heaven, "God will
bring the souls of ALL those who sleep in Him"
including "beheaded Gentile Tribulation Saints
who witness for Jesus and keep God's word and
are washed in the blood of the Lamb and are
called, elect and faithful". I Thess.3:13; I Thess 4:14; 2 Thess.1:10; Rev.7:14; Rev.17:14.

These Great-Tribulation Gentile Saints will
"come WITH Jesus having been "beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God"!! Rev.20:4.

How dare you change the word of the Lord by
claiming only Great Tribulation Jews, and not Great Tribulation Gentile Saints, will come
WITH Jesus!! They come from ALL nations.

Those beheaded by the Beast come out of every nation and tongue. They will "serve God in heaven for 1000 years, reign with Christ in
heaven and come out of the great tribulation from every nation, tribe and tongue"!!

II. When "Jesus descends with the voice of the
archangel and the trump of God", He promised to "raise up every/all believers" because Paul states that ALL the saints will appear WITH Him at His Presence". I Thess.3:13.

Please STOP denying the word of the Lord by
claiming there will be no Gentile Christians
during the Great Tribulation. God will hold
you accountable for such heretical teaching!!

III. You cannot find Scripture to back up
your false claim that ALL His Saints will
live and reign ON THE EARTH for 1000 years.

Why do you blatantly deny the Scripture that
Church Overcomers will "be Pillars in the
Temple of heaven, will serve God in heaven
and will reign with Christ (in heaven) for
1000 years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

I am sick of your continual contradiction of
the simple statement of Jesus that He will
"raise up every/all believers on the last
day and He will gather the elect from the
uttermost part of earth to the uttermost
part of heaven on one of the days after the
great tribulation; WHEN men see Him coming
in the clouds with great power and glory".
John 6:38-40,44,54; Mark 13:24-27.

Please STOP your denials of the truths of
Jesus Himself because you face harsh words
from God for adding to or taking away what
He has revealed!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,

My friend, I submit that YOU are the one who
doesn't understand the word "ALL".

I. When Jesus descends from heaven, "God will
bring the souls of ALL those who sleep in Him"
including "beheaded Gentile Tribulation Saints
who witness for Jesus and keep God's word and
are washed in the blood of the Lamb and are
called, elect and faithful". I Thess.3:13; I Thess 4:14; 2 Thess.1:10; Rev.7:14; Rev.17:14.

These Great-Tribulation Gentile Saints will
"come WITH Jesus having been "beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God"!! Rev.20:4.

I don't see any mention of the church saints, where are they???

How dare you change the word of the Lord by
claiming only Great Tribulation Jews, and not Great Tribulation Gentile Saints, will come
WITH Jesus!! They come from ALL nations.

Those beheaded by the Beast come out of every nation and tongue. They will "serve God in heaven for 1000 years, reign with Christ in
heaven and come out of the great tribulation from every nation, tribe and tongue"!!

I don't see any mention of a 1000 year "Earthly Reign", if Jesus rules from Heaven, where's the "Earthly reign"???

II. When "Jesus descends with the voice of the
archangel and the trump of God", He promised to "raise up every/all believers" because Paul states that ALL the saints will appear WITH Him at His Presence". I Thess.3:13.

This is when Jesus comes as the "Bridegroom" only for the "bride of Christ", those who believe in Jesus, Jews don't, this is why Israel is blinded until the rapture. (fulness of Gentiles)

Please STOP denying the word of the Lord by
claiming there will be no Gentile Christians
during the Great Tribulation. God will hold
you accountable for such heretical teaching!!

III. You cannot find Scripture to back up
your false claim that ALL His Saints will
live and reign ON THE EARTH for 1000 years.

The "first resurrection" includes "ALL" who are saved, but I don't see any provisions in your "theory" that allows for the rapture or the returning of church saints with Jesus.

Why do you blatantly deny the Scripture that
Church Overcomers will "be Pillars in the
Temple of heaven, will serve God in heaven
and will reign with Christ (in heaven) for
1000 years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

"IN CHRIST" there are no Jews/Greek/geeks, all are "ONE", God doesn't "separate them.

Please STOP your denials of the truths of
Jesus Himself because you face harsh words
from God for adding to or taking away what
He has revealed!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Did you ever consider that you might be wrong, God may "wink" at ignorance until he reveals it to you, then you're held accountable.

Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Now that you have admitted Gentiles will
be saved during the great tribulation, in
contrast to ituttut who denies this truth,
you need to recognize the truth, for the
first time also, that my view does indeed
reveal that ALL surviving believers will be raptured on the day Christ comes with ALL
the saints that "God brings with Jesus at
His Presence". Jesus says this will occur
"at His Presence (parousia) when men see
Him coming" (erchomai)!! Matt.24:27-30.

Quote:
______________________________________________
The "first resurrection" includes "ALL" who are saved, but I don't see any provisions in your "theory" that allows for the rapture or the returning of church saints with Jesus.
_______________________________________________

It is not a theory that "All those Believers
who are alive and survive will rise up on the last day and that Jesus will gather them from
earth to heaven and send the angels to gather
them out of the heavenS".

Those who are alive and survive will be caught
up to meet their loved ones and the Lord in
the air AT HIS PRESENCE. This is no theory. It
is the eternal word of God.

Start believing ALL the Word; not just that
part which deals with the restoration of the
Jews WHEN Christ returns with ALL the Saints.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net
gather

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,

Now that you have admitted Gentiles will
be saved during the great tribulation, in
contrast to ituttut who denies this truth,
you need to recognize the truth, for the
first time also, that my view does indeed
reveal that ALL surviving believers will be raptured on the day Christ comes with ALL
the saints that "God brings with Jesus at
His Presence". Jesus says this will occur
"at His Presence (parousia) when men see
Him coming" (erchomai)!! Matt.24:27-30.

Quote:
______________________________________________
The "first resurrection" includes "ALL" who are saved, but I don't see any provisions in your "theory" that allows for the rapture or the returning of church saints with Jesus.
_______________________________________________

It is not a theory that "All those Believers
who are alive and survive will rise up on the last day and that Jesus will gather them from
earth to heaven and send the angels to gather
them out of the heavenS".

Those who are alive and survive will be caught
up to meet their loved ones and the Lord in
the air AT HIS PRESENCE. This is no theory. It
is the eternal word of God.

Start believing ALL the Word; not just that
part which deals with the restoration of the
Jews WHEN Christ returns with ALL the Saints.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net
gather

If you want to know what I believe read this link.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html#000000

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Quote by Me4Him:
_____________________________________________
The "first resurrection" includes "ALL" who are saved, but I don't see any provisions in your (Mel's) "theory" that allows for the rapture or the returning of church saints with Jesus.
_______________________________________________

Your response to my challenge is evasive since
it does not explain why those "returning with
Jesus" do not include surviving Trib-Saints:

Challenge:
_______________________________________________
Start believing ALL the Word; not just that
part which deals with the restoration of the
Jews WHEN Christ returns with ALL the Saints.
_______________________________________________

Evasive Quote by Me4Him:
_______________________________________________
If you want to know what I believe read this link.
_______________________________________________

What I seek is your explanation of why the Trib-Saints who "overcome to the end" should NOT be included with ALL the Saints who come with Jesus as a result of the Rapture of all Believers from earth to heaven "on the last day". Rev.2:25-27; John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27.

You allow Trib-Martyrs to take part in the First Resurrection but deny that those who "are alive
and remain until the presence of the Lord will be caught up with them in the air". YOU HAVE NO
EVIDENCE THAT THE "PRESENCE OF THE LORD" REFERS TO A PRE-TRIB PRESENCE. Jesus said to expect His
"presence" when He comes to gather the Saints in
the days after the tribulation; not before!!

Your theory denies that "Trib-Surviving Saints"
will be among those "coming with the Lord" and
so you deny I Thess.3:13; I Thess.4:16-17 and
2 Thess.1:10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:

Your response to my challenge is evasive since
it does not explain why those "returning with
Jesus" do not include surviving Trib-Saints:


Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Yep, 8 pages of charts/text in the link I posted, and I'm being "Evasive"???

Now just who is being "dishonest"????

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

You implied at 12:20 AM that I called you
“dishonest”. I resent your attack. This, sir, is a low, unkind and purposeful attempt to besmirch my character. Your attack began on May 6, 3:56 PM, when you said my mind is “twisted”!

I have not stated or implied that you are “dishonest”. I have challenged you for
twisting the words of Jesus because your explanation of what He meant contradicts
Paul’s word that the Fulness of the Gentiles occurs when Messiah returns at the
end of the Tribulation; not when He supposedly comes at a Pre-Trib Rapture!

Your pet theory that the Church will not be on earth during any part of the 70th
Seven also contradicts the basic teaching of the Lord that He will be with His
Church until the End of the Age when He will send forth the angels to “gather the
elect” whom He first “gathers from the earth to heaven upon the four winds on
one of the days after the tribulation.” Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31.

NOT ONCE during this entire thread since April 5 (nor on any other thread) have you directly supported your claim that Jesus did NOT mean His promise to “raise up every believer on the last day AND to gather the elect from earth to the uttermost part of heaven AND that He will send the angels to gather them out of the (same)
4 winds from the uttermost parts of the heavenS”. John 6:38-40. Your unproven theory
that the Rapture and Resurrection cannot occur in the “same time-frame” at the end of the tribulation totally contradicts the word of the Lord and that of Paul in I Thess.4:13-17 when
"God brings the souls of the dead in Christ (including Trib-Martyrs) with Jesus and He comes with all the saints".

NOT ONCE SIR, except for the inadvertent post
below on May 10, have you even recognized what Jesus promised for "ALL believers"!

Quote from 12:20 AM: ______________________________________________
Now just who is being "dishonest"???? _______________________________________________
Quote from May 9, 11:41 PM that denies what Jesus taught:
_______________________________________________
"IF" there's only one "coming", if Jesus reaps al the righteous, ther wouldn't be any
righteous left for the angel to reap. These reaping can not take place at the same time,
in the same time frame.
_______________________________________________
Me4Him:
Instead of showing me how you arrived at your false teaching above, your only response was that I should “stick around and see”! May 10 at 1:59 PM. Inadvertently, you actually admit the truth in the next quote on May 13 at 12:45 AM;
_______________________________________________
Mel, When Jesus returns to the earth he brings "ALL" his saints, to live and reign with him for the 1000 years. 1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Are you a Calvinist or do you nderstand "ALL"??
______________________________________________

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Your pet theory that the Church will not be on earth during any part of the 70th
Seven also contradicts the basic teaching of the Lord that He will be with His
Church until the End of the Age//

Good grief the Age Ends with the Pre Tribulation Raptue.
This contradicts no scriputre and fulfilles many.

 

[Me4Him]

I'll be dropping out of these discussion, what I beleive is posted at the link, if you don't want to read it there, no sense in me retyping it here.

 

[Mel Miller]

DHK,

Thank you so much for the following quote giving
your assessment of Me4Him's lack of respect for God's Holy Word in which Jesus and Paul agree
that He will "raise up all believers on the last day".
________________________________________________
"I don't put icons of laughing at the end of my posts when discussing the Word of God. I don't mock the Word of God. I do understand the Word of God. I don't allegorize it and come up with some far-fetched idea that the Word of God was never intended to mean in the first place.
Your words are just that "your words," because they contradict the clear teaching of the Bible. Opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You have presented opinion and not the truth of the Word of God. Your so-called truth (opinion) cannot be verified by Scripture which is our only standard and authority that we go by. Gnosticism is a heresy". DHK
_______________________________________________

Me4Him's Gnostic's charts claim to present a
God who is "divided" within Himself ... a
heresy that makes God's actions "independent
and separate" from those of Jesus ... a heresy to which he keeps alluding.

Me4Him finally "bowed out" of discussions on
the Comparison of Mt.24 and I Th.4 after his
continual reminders that I should read the
truth at the "links" to his "charts". I guess
he got tired of "posting" his charts and of
my failure (lack of knowledge) to accept "the truth" that only he (and no one else) accepts.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net