Compromisers Promoted At Bob Jones University

[foxrev]

Gentlemen (Paul33 and 2atlow8):

Thank you for sharing your two instances. These are but two more added to a very long list of "BJ Cares" actions. The slogan is part of image/damage control on the part of bj3. He just doesn't get it. He sends out "Fire-branded" scalding letters to anyone who questions him more than once on an issue.

As for blackballing and rubbing out. How would it be for you as a preacher to have all of your acuqaintces be told by the "POPE" of Fundamentalism that YOU are a cantankerous, troublemaking, rabble rousing preacher? Hmmm. The majority of men in the "BJU Crowd" would believe every word he said over yours. Your opportunity to serve in good churches would be devastated.
Larry says:
"These are common scare tactics to try to persuade others and change opinion based on outrageous statements."

Really? Sounds to me you would take bj3 at his word just like many other fellows. Slandering me over facts I have presented is a sorry tactic Larry.

2atlow is very correct in his statement of "Secondary rub-out." It would not be the first time that a current faculty/staff person was rubbed out for something said in regards to them concerning the tactics of bj3.

I have personally seen such behavior by the former dean of men who just resigned this past summer! A family member of mine was literally raked over the coals for something he had not done but was done by another family member who was not even at BJU! Wacky and very powerhungry/controlling. How terribly awful.

Larry says:
"The fact remains that BJIII can't "rub out" anyone."

Wrong. They can do a lot of damage to grads and non grads alike if bj3 so chooses. He has personally involved himself in local church situations in South Carolina, and some other states, to help "remedy" a situation. When bj3 speaks at his "Preacher Fellowships" and "Ministerial Class" he has spoken against grads/non-grads who he says are "Nuts" or "Disobedient" and uses them as an example. When he does that kind of thing, it does not take long for "The Word" to get out what a "Bad Guy" someone is because "Bob 3rd" said so!"

 

[2atlow8]

Greg,

It doesn't matter to me if I am "rubbed-out" because, quite frankly, I don't care what they think. It does matter that they can permanently damage the life of my family. How would you feel if your employer called you into the office to say, you're fired, your kids are no longer enrolled in college, high school and elementary school, you have no health insurance and you must vacate OUR home in 24 hours. You have made little enough money over the years that your savings won't last long and you must tell your future employers that you were fired.

Now, that's being rubbed-out.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There is a lot of absolute trash being told here and I think the people involved know it. This is an embarrassment to many of you. The unfortunate thing is that many are not able to recognize the trash that is coming out of here. They read what you guys say and think it is true. Most of it is not. It is a shame that among professing Christians, this stuff goes on.

The fact remains that BJIII and BJU only affects those who let themselves be affected by that. I just have to laugh at this stuff. It is truly hilarious. You guys are apparently scared to death. You shouldn't be. You should get on with your lives.

 

[aefting]

To be fair, 2atlow8, there is probably a lot more to this story than what you are mentioning. Frankly, I cannot conceive of the university doing that simply because someone planned to change jobs in a few months.

Andy

 

[foxrev]

Larry says:
"I just have to laugh at this stuff. It is truly hilarious."

It is very foolish for you to laugh at the sin and treatment of Christians by bj3 and his blinded servants. Strange, you have no proof that we are supposedly lying. These are NOT lies.

You need to read the book published by BJU itself in regard to its 75th anniversary. You will find that the "paranoia" surrounding the Presidents office and administration of BJU started at that point with a man who tried to "overthrow" BJU in the 1950's.

2atlow8 says
"You have made little enough money over the years that your savings won't last long and you must tell your future employers that you were fired.

Have seen this very thing happen many times over the last 20 years. And bj3 wonders why people are upset with him.

 

[Greg Linscott]

If BJIII is a "pope"-like figure, he is made so because people have elevated him to that level. They would be just as much, if not more guilty for elevating him to that status as BJIII for assuming it.

No one here at my church contacted BJIII to get his approval when they extended the call. Godly churches can and do exist outside the "BJU orbit." Consider two examples- extreme, perhaps, but relevant: John MacArthur and Arlin Horton. They both seem to be doing "okay" despite their stated disagreements with BJU, and BJU's stated disagreements with them.

My point continues to be this- if you are doing what is right, it shouldn't matter what anyone thinks. If you lose your job and benefits at BJU, for example, but lose these things because you have followed your Biblical convictions, well, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake. If you end up in a smaller church, or a lower-profile situation than you might have if you had the "Official BJ Blessing," Praise the Lord, and plug away! God doesn't need BJU to make your church or ministry a success.

And 2atlow8, again I would submit to you: if the BJ system is as bad as you describe, the best thing that could happen to your family would be for them to cease indoctrinating their children in "the system." Many people live without health insurance and so on- ask many pastors on this board. If things have been as controlling as some here have described, though, I would submit that at least some responsibility lies with those who agree to work under such conditions. Such an established pattern must certainly have been observed over a long period of time. That choice, in my opinion, exhibits a tremendous lack of discernment and a terrible risk to your family by accepting such a position in the first place.

(Note: I am not saying the BJU circumstances are as bad as have been described- just taking the assumptions to their logical conclusions.)

 

[Pastor Larry]

I cannot conceive of the university doing that simply because someone planned to change jobs in a few months.

At BJU, as at most schools (secular as well), faculty and staff are required to state their intentions for the upcoming year by around the end of February or so. Immediate firings are based on other issues.

 

[LarryN]

Originally posted by 2atlow8:
Greg,

It doesn't matter to me if I am "rubbed-out" because, quite frankly, I don't care what they think. It does matter that they can permanently damage the life of my family. How would you feel if your employer called you into the office to say, you're fired, your kids are no longer enrolled in college, high school and elementary school, you have no health insurance and you must vacate OUR home in 24 hours. You have made little enough money over the years that your savings won't last long and you must tell your future employers that you were fired.

Now, that's being rubbed-out.

I don't know anything about BJU in this regard, but I know of PCC doing this kind of thing.

A long-time friend of mine & her husband were living in Pensacola a few years ago. Her husband was/is a Commander in the U.S. Navy, and he was stationed at Pensacola N.A.S. at the time. My friend (Bachelor's & Master's in English; several years of experience teaching at both secondary & post-secondary levels) was hired by PCC to teach in the English department. Both she & her husband have their undergrad degrees from BJU.

Shortly before the school year began she was summoned to her department head's office, and asked why her oldest son was a student at BJU, and not PCC. She says that she made no attempt to "hide" this fact in her application process to PCC; and why would she? She says that she was then basically told something to this effect: "If PCC isn't good enough for your son, then we don't have any need for your services here." So she left the office, fired from a position she hadn't yet begun.

 

[foxrev]

Arlin and "Becka" Horton learned very well as students of BJU. You live what you saw as a student or you can reject that which is unscriptural.

 

[foxrev]

Greg L says:
If BJIII is a "pope"-like figure, he is made so because people have elevated him to that level. They would be just as much, if not more guilty for elevating him to that status as BJIII for assuming it.

Well Shazam! Greg knows all about bj3 -- again! Why do you insist on defending someone you have no clue about as a person? Bj3 IS a POPE like figure - because he makes himself so! He DEMANDS total allegiance from faculty, staff and students. He is at the TOP of the "Chain of Command" as we were taught as freshmen students. It is not assumed, the only thing assumed is your thinking about bj3.

IF I still held him as a POPE in my mind, this thread NEVER would have been started. Obviously, by some of the posts here defending bj3 to the death, there are some that revere bj3 as a POPE.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It is very foolish for you to laugh at the sin and treatment of Christians by bj3 and his blinded servants. Strange, you have no proof that we are supposedly lying. These are NOT lies.

I do have proof and you know it. I wrote to you almost a week ago to appeal to your privately concerning this matter. I know for a fact that some of the things you have said are lies. I told you that publicly here and offered additional support in private. I know for a fact that many of the things you have said are outright misrepresentations. I have no particular affinity for BJIII or BJU. I certainly do not regard him as the pope, nor am I concenred that he might "rub me out." But there are certain things being said that are plainly false and need to be confronted.

I am not laughing at sin (although laughing at your tactics may well put me in that category). What I find funny is the lengths to which you have gone to attack someone. It is completely unbiblical. You are out of line. You seem very disgruntled that your opinion is not followed and have taken it upon yourself to air your grievances in a public forum. That is an unethical way to solve your problems. You have too high a view of yourself and your own opinion, it seems to me. You seem to think that wisdom ends with you and that anyone who doesn't do it your way or listen to your advice is sinning against God. That is a poor standard for judgment, as has been pointed out to you many times. YOu got upset when BJIII did not respond to your confrontation. But now you do the exact same thing ... refuse to respond to confrontation. Why are you inconsistent?

You need to read the book published by BJU itself in regard to its 75th anniversary. You will find that the "paranoia" surrounding the Presidents office and administration of BJU started at that point with a man who tried to "overthrow" BJU in the 1950's.

YOu are likely referring to Builder of Bridges which was put out around that time, written by RK Johnson, the long time business manager at the school. There is also a newer book entitled Standing without Apology, which began as a doctoral dissertation from the University of Illinois. It is written by current faculty member Dan Turner. There is also a book entitled Island in the Lake of Fire, a doctoral dissertation from the University of Georgia, written by a complete outsider. All three are valuable sources of information.

The issue to which you refer is likely the issue with Ted Mercer, who served at BJU from the mids 40s to the early 50s. He served a variety of roles, including Registrar and assistant to the President. You can read about it in Standing Without Apology, on pp. 153-159. There are many reasons why Mercer was fired, the heart of which was loyalty. Mercer developed a following, apparently by bending the rules and getting students off the hook for demerits. There were many issues at hand, but Jones Sr. stood by Mercer all the way to the end, just before he was fired. In departing, Mercer stole the only complete mailing list and wrote three booklets detailing his beefs with BJU, which he mailed to all fo the students. He accused Jones Sr. of some serious charges. BJU apparenlty never made a public statement concerning the matter until the publication of STanding. The records were sealed until that time, according to Turner.

Mercer showed himself to be disloyal to the school, to be working against its purposes, and therefore, his firing was justified. It is certainly not unreasonable to expect employees to be loyal to their employers.

Turner's account is well documented, including 50 footnotes for just those 7 pages. In fact, the chapter is 7 pages long. The footnotes are 4 pages long of considerably smaller typeface. They include interviews, correspondence, board meeting minutes, newspaper articles, etc.

They indicate that there was in fact no paranoia at all. The founder was very loyal to Mercer all the way to the end. It was the board of trustees that voted to fire Mercer. Bob Sr fired him, with a severance check of $500 (a considerable amount of money in the early 50s) and a note that there was no personal animosity towards either Mercer or his wife.

 

[aefting]

Bj3 IS a POPE like figure - because he makes himself so! ..... He is at the TOP of the "Chain of Command" as we were taught as freshmen students.

Well, he is the president of the univeristy. Who do you think should be at the top of the chain of command?

But Pope? I must not run in the right circles because I don't know anyone who treats BJIII in that manner. There is certainly no one on this board who does.

Andy

 

[2atlow8]

Have you actually read what I wrote, man. My family is content where they are. They feel no reason to leave. My in-laws are not there, they were asked to leave on 24 hrs notice. I could give the gory details but I won't. Suffice it to say I have told no lie, fabrication, exageration, or even stretch. I was there, I saw it, no memory bending has taken place.

Now, I disagreed with Foxrev in the signing of some document, I disagree with Foxrev that the place is in an apostacy slide into the toilet. I agree with Foxrev that the place has a very long reach.

I would just hate for anything I say on this board to reflect negatively on my family who feels they are in God's will serving at BJU. My neices and nephews are very happy there and are getting a first class education from a private college.

I wouldn't make it three hours today after surviving 4 years 20 year ago.

 

[tfisher1]

I'd just be curious to see a short summary of what Dr. Bob, Squire, and Pastor Larry have against BJU. What is it, is it strictly this "separation" issues. Is that all of it? Could you show me what a perfect college is?
I'm just curious. Your little digs in your post to clearly state that you don't agree with BJ and wouldn't recommend your kids attend there (at least I thought I saw a post by Dr. Bob stating he wouldn't want anyone to attend there).
Can you all deny that they put out some of the finest kids around. Our church probably sends 23-15 students a year to BJ, and most of them come back preachers, missionaries, or laymen completely devoted to Christ. Of course there is always a few who don't, but any college will have those. The preacher boys seem to come back highly schooled(skilled) and knowledgeable.
Like I said, just curious what it is that bothers you guys.

thanks,
Todd

 

[Greg Linscott]

Well Shazam! Greg knows all about bj3 -- again! Why do you insist on defending someone you have no clue about as a person? Bj3 IS a POPE like figure - because he makes himself so! He DEMANDS total allegiance from faculty, staff and students. He is at the TOP of the "Chain of Command" as we were taught as freshmen students. It is not assumed, the only thing assumed is your thinking about bj3.

I'm not defending anyone. I'm trying to point out the flaws in your logic.

Just because BJ3 (apparently) DEMANDS loyalty doesn't mean that you are OBLIGATED to give it to him. You and countless other alumni have a choice in the matter. The responsibility is to those who follow (apparently blindly) as well. That is what I'm saying.

I'm also saying this, foxrev: If we follow your assumptions to their logical conclusion, those who display unquestioning loyalty to BJ3 are either 1. Not going to hear your concerns, or 2. Not going to react to your concerns because of fear of being "rubbed out."

Tell your concerns to BJ3. If your concerns aren't addressed to your satisfaction, stop recommending your students attend there, withold your donations, and cancel your subscription to Today's Christian Preacher- then move on!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Anything I have is in the area of CAT 3 truth. Suffice to say, I am a Historic Northern Baptist and I do not debate the proper mode of believer's baptism. It's single immersion anythingelse is getting wet. And disagreeing with me on CAT 3 Truth doesn't make you a heretic. It just means you may not be a Regular Baptist of the Northern Persuasion.

Basicly, this means I would send my nephew the artist off to BJ on a full ride scholarship in a non-second if God gave me the resources. The same with my niece the musician. The same goes for my god-grandson another music type. But if any of nephews are called to a puplit ministry, well lad, how about IBC, MBBC or NBC?

 

[2atlow8]

Forgive my ignorance... What are these CAT 3 things. Levels of separation?

 

[Paul33]

Pastor Larry,

You were painting with an awful wide brush.

I hope you weren't refering to me. My story is true.

My explanation as to why some care so much about BJU's approval is just that. An explanation. Some people really do want to belong to that sphere. Indoctrination is very strong at BJU. Abnormal psychological attachments are created.

Leaving BJU on your own is paramount to being outside of God's will. This was stated privately, from the dean's office, from the chapel, from the dorm rooms, etc.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Originally posted by 2atlow8:
Forgive my ignorance... What are these CAT 3 things. Levels of separation?

Here is the Categories of Truth thread. They are layed out in a horizontal parallel. So, separation is more of a matter of how much do we agree with each other on.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by tfisher1:
I'd just be curious to see a short summary of what Dr. Bob, Squire, and Pastor Larry have against BJU. Your little digs in your post to clearly state that you don't agree with BJ and wouldn't recommend your kids attend there (at least I thought I saw a post by Dr. Bob stating he wouldn't want anyone to attend there).

I truly just ignore BJU. I am a Baptist and recommend students go to a Baptist school. I am not a legalist, so recommend they go to a Baptist school where legalism is not the normative behavior.

Both of these rule out BoJo.

I have seen the "product" of BJU in the pastors. Some are good, some are not. My son-in-law (prof at Maranatha BBC, a GOOD Baptist school) is a BJU alum. His choice. The school has a lot of baggage and I would not personally want to be tied to it. They also have done a lot of good and I applaud that.

I just don't really have anything to do with them. So don't drag ME into your cat fight about how "evil" BJU is for compromisers or for weird rules or for kicking you out when you showed you were not of their stripe. You all went there, now YOU have the baggage. Deal with it.

Let the rest of us non-Bojo'ers just read your posts and scratch out heads and say another prayer of thanks that we are NOT in your position.