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Conceal Carry in Church?

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TCassidy

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Alive in Christ said:
So, your 2nd amendment rights are more important to you then Gods admonition: "Thou shalt not kill"?
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You have already been corrected regarding your misuse of scripture. The bible teaches that we "do not murder." If you actually believed your bible you would know that because when Jesus quoted that commandment He said in Mark 10:19 "You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”

You have also been corrected by being told that Jesus COMMANDS us to take up arms to protect ourselves and others. Luke 22:36 "Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.""

Why you, who claims to be "alive in Christ" can have so little regard for His word puzzles me. Shame on you!
 
Crabtownboy

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
TCassidy said:
You have also been corrected by being told that Jesus COMMANDS us to take up arms to protect ourselves and others. Luke 22:36 "Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.""
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And Jesus saying about those who live by the sword die by the sword negates your intent of using them against people.

You make the same mistake the disciples made, you take his words literally and ignore the following verse. It is explained better in the following quote:

The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That’s enough!” he replied.
—Gospel of Luke 22:36-38, NIV
Ellul, Yoder and Archie Penner claim that two swords could not possibly have been "enough" to defend Jesus from his pending arrest, trial and execution, so their sole purpose must have been Jesus' wish to fulfill a prophecy (Isaiah 53:9-12).[4] As Ellul explains:
The further comment of Jesus explains in part the surprising statement, for he says: "It is necessary that the prophecy be fulfilled according to which I would be put in the ranks of criminals" (Luke 22:36-37). The idea of fighting with just two swords is ridiculous. The swords are enough, however, to justify the accusation that Jesus is the head of a band of brigands. We have to note here that Jesus is consciously fulfilling prophecy. If he were not the saying would make no sense

Well known theologian John Gill said in his Exposition of the Entire Bible:
These words of Christ are not to be understood literally, that he would have his disciples furnish themselves with swords at any rate, since he would never have said, as he afterwards does, that two were sufficient; which could not be enough for eleven men; or have forbid Peter the use of one, as he did in a very little time after this: but his meaning is, that wherever they came, and a door was opened for the preaching of the Gospel, they would have many adversaries, and these powerful, and would be used with great violence, and be followed with rage and persecution; so that they might seem to stand in need of swords to defend them: the phrase is expressive of the danger they would be exposed to, and of their need of protection; and therefore it was wrong in them to be disputing and quarrelling about superiority, or looking out for, and expecting temporal pomp and grandeur, when this would be their forlorn, destitute, and afflicted condition; and they would quickly see the affliction and distress begin in himself. In "seven" ancient copies of Beza's, it is read in the future tense, "he shall take, he shall sell, he shall buy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sell_your_cloak_and_buy_a_sword
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A

Alive in Christ

New Member
Crabtownboy

You posted...

And Jesus saying about those who live by the sword die by the sword negates your intent of using them against people.

You make the same mistake the disciples made, you take his words literally and ignore the following verse.
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Good find. Of course, I agree.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Alive in Christ said:
Luke, You posted...




This topic has nothing to do with a christian soldier.




This topic has nothing to do with going to work.



You insinuate that those who carry do not "trust God" but you fail the same test all of the time.

No I dont. I would never take a gun to church with me.




Of course you do. I am familiar with you from posting with you many times.


God bless
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No, no.

You're argument for why people absolutely should not carry a gun to church is because they ought to just trust God.

Why shouldn't they just trust God on the battlefield in the same way?

You can either trust God to protect you at all times and all places and thus never carry a gun or you can believe that carrying a gun is useful in any place where it is at all possible that your life could be threatened.

To accuse people of not trusting God simply because they carry a gun to church is utterly ridiculous.

They ought to blind fold themselves on their drive to church to REALLY show how much they trust God!

Then we could REALLY commend them for their awesome faith!
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Salty said:
USN,
I'm not sure if I respect that view (of Alive).
If that were the case, then why should a church have fire extinguishers, why should a church be required to have running water, should a church require background checks, ect. As Alive says "seek a church where they put their trust in GOD, "
I wonder if he is actually consistent in his trust in God?
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Excellent point!

Why put fire extinguishers in church? Why not just TRUST GOD?


Why put up exit signs in church? Why not just trust God to show you the way out if the room is filled with smoke??


Why build churches with ails? Why not put pews or chair up helter skelter and trust God to show you how to get to where he wants you to sit?

Why put that extra screw in the chandelier over the pews??
Why not just trust God to keep it from falling on people?
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Crabtownboy said:
And Jesus saying about those who live by the sword die by the sword negates your intent of using them against people.

You make the same mistake the disciples made, you take his words literally and ignore the following verse. It is explained better in the following quote:
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Once again you prove that you do not know how to interpret Scripture.

You LITERALLY just dismiss one passage and embrace the one that suits you.
 
TCassidy

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Crabtownboy said:
And Jesus saying about those who live by the sword die by the sword negates your intent of using them against people.
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It never ceases to amaze me how often you make statements which show you have little or no real understanding of the bible.

In Matthew 26:52 when Jesus told Peter to put his sword away for "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" He was not commanding "Christian disarmament." It is Jesus telling Peter that vigilantism is wrong. No matter how unjust the arrest of Jesus may have been Peter did not have the right to take the law into his own hands.

If someone hurts a family member I do not have the right to hunt them down and kill them. I am to trust in the law of the land to right the wrong.

To try to say that verse makes what Jesus said in Luke 22:36 a lie is simply ungodly, not to mention unchristian.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Revmitchell said:
That is not what was said. Good grief.
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Yea, it is.

Crabtown said that Jesus saying "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword" negated what Jesus said when he said, "sell your garments and buy swords."

Crabtown implied that Jesus was calling himself a liar.

And then AiC agreed with what Crabtown said.
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke2427 said:
Yea, it is.

Crabtown said that Jesus saying "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword" negated what Jesus said when he said, "sell your garments and buy swords."

Crabtown implied that Jesus was calling himself a liar.
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I almost never agree with crabby,and I do not agree with him on this issue. But because he interprets scripture differently than you do does not mean he implied what you said. To suggest that is just not intellectually honest. We can agree that he got it wrong, but it is mean spirited and over the top to accuse him of calling Jesus a liar. I do not believe that is what he did nor do I believe that is in his character to do.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Revmitchell said:
I almost never agree with crabby,and I do not agree with him on this issue. But because he interprets scripture differently than you do does not mean he implied what you said. To suggest that is just not intellectually honest. We can agree that he got it wrong, but it is mean spirited and over the top to accuse him of calling Jesus a liar. I do not believe that is what he did nor do I believe that is in his character to do.
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It does not matter what you believe. Facts are facts totally apart from what you believe.

You may want to say that you don't think that is what he MEANT, but it IS what his words, as he wrote them, IMPLIED- period.


Crabtown is known for saying things that he has not thought through that lead to necessary conclusions which he had not considered.

His hermeneutics are terribly lacking and the proof of that once again is seen in that he thinks that passage can be used to ban guns.
 
R

Robert Snow

New Member
sag38 said:
Please, when you learn how to not use text proofs get back with me. In the meantime you are free to go to the church of your choice because others died to give you the right to do so.
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I believe it is actually Jesus who died and gave us the right to be part of His church. If you look to others who have died you are in the wrong church.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Robert Snow said:
I believe it is actually Jesus who died and gave us the right to be part of His church. If you look to others who have died you are in the wrong church.
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This is not surprising from a man who spits upon our founding fathers because most of them were Calvinists; he now spits on thousands of soldiers who have defended our right to worship the way we please and go to whatever church we want.

Not surprising.
 
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