Concerning Romans 9:16

[Silverhair]

You are in error because you do not know or understand scripture. I have neither the time or patience to attempt to correct you.

peace to you

Your arrogance is showing there @canadyjd.

I do know and have a reasonable understanding of scripture. What I do not accept is the errant view that you present.

It seems that you believe what you like in the bible, and reject what you do not like, so it is not the bible you believe but yourself.

You keep showing this over and over buy your continued denial of clear scripture.

I have neither the time or patience to attempt to correct you although I will pray that God in His mercy will open your eyes to the truth of His word.

 

[canadyjd]

Your arrogance is showing there @canadyjd.

I do know and have a reasonable understanding of scripture. What I do not accept is the errant view that you present.

It seems that you believe what you like in the bible, and reject what you do not like, so it is not the bible you believe but yourself.

You keep showing this over and over buy your continued denial of clear scripture.

I have neither the time or patience to attempt to correct you although I will pray that God in His mercy will open your eyes to the truth of His word.

You have consistently demonstrated the inability to accurately state what I have posted.

You continually make false statements about what I have said and believe. Even after I correct you, you just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.

Attempting to dialog with you is a complete waste of time.

Therefore, I’m not going to respond to your posts.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

You have consistently demonstrated the inability to accurately state what I have posted.

You continually make false statements about what I have said and believe. Even after I correct you, you just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.

Attempting to dialog with you is a complete waste of time.

Therefore, I’m not going to respond to your posts.

peace to you

Actually you just do not like the fact that I do not agree with your view.

So OK. You do not have to reply to this post.

 

[Alan Gross]

What am I doing?

Looks like I just quoted some things,
and I do like most of them very much.

And then I colored them up, brother(?), with Crayolas!

LA LA LA LA LA TIME!

All I want to do is discuss Romans 9:16 and its implications on whether “election” comes before or after faith. Clearly, this passage supports the truth elections comes prior to faith.

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16.

The text does not say a lot.
It dies not, for example,
define the "it" that doesn't depend on man.

No, the “it” in v. 16 does not refer to Israel.

“It” refers to “so that God’s purpose
according to election might stand”

“Vessels of mercy”… clay (people)
deliberately molded (created) by God
for the purpose of God
demonstrating the riches of His glory upon.

That is election according to God’s purpose.

“It” doesn’t depend on the man who runs
or the man who wills but on God who shows mercy.

“It” refers to that His purpose will stand according to election.

Romans 9:23-24.

“…And that He might demonstrate the riches of His glory
upon vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory,
even us whom He has called”

Romans does not support the third option you described
as God making someone elect after they believe.
It simply is not there.

You get to your verse which states that "it" is not a result of Man but the grace of God. But your solution is not the only one that is supported by that verse.

You may not like that you have not stumbled upon a view that alone is supported by Romans 9:16, but facts do not care about feelings.

11 "(For the children being not yet born,
neither having done any good or evil,
that the Purpose of God according to Election might stand,
not of works, but of Him that calleth

 

[SavedByGrace]

WOW!!!

This is a classic HIJACKING of what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS, by the so called "Reformed", who will try every trick to FORCE the Word of God, support their FANCIFUL NONSENSE!!!

Show from the ENTIRE chapter 9, WHERE does the word SALVATION appear? NO WHERE!

Romans chapters 9-11, is Pauls many arguments to show God's REJECTION of the Old Testament "elect" people, The Jews, because of their REJECTION of His Ways, and Jesus Christ as THE MESSIAH.

In these chapters Paul uses many examples from the OT, to show how the Jews, who were once the "elect" of God, had REJECTED Him, and God's sending of the Gospel Message to the Gentile Nations.

In Chapter 9, much to the dismay of the "Reformed", Paul is in NO WAY saying that God "elected" Jacob to salvation, and "hated" Esau so much, that He sent him to hell! NO WAY! What Paul is ACTUALLY showing, is God's PREFERENCE of Jacob over Esau, as in SERVICE, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER", verse 12, which is then explained in the following verse, that God PREFERRED (which is how "hate" is used here), Jacob. The use of the Greek "miséō", is in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, as it is in Luke 14:26, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple". Which is explained in Matthew 10:37, ""He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me". NOTHING, whatsoever about God "detesting" Esau!

In verse 16, Paul says, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy", which is simply the fact, that ALL God does, is because of HIS PERFECT WILL, and got nothing to do with OUR EFFORTS!

In 9:22, God says this about those who are not the "Vessels of Honor" (21), "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Note that God is said to "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction". WHY would God be LONGSUFFERING with these "vessels of WRATH", if they are hell-bound? The ONLY reason, is that they would CHANGE their ways in "REPENING of their sins,l and BELIEVING in the Gospel".

ONLY the "Reformed" will see in these passages, "evidence", that God has "elected" them to salvation, and damned the rest of humans to eternal punishment, which goes AGAINST God's own PROMISE, that salvation is FREELY AVAILABLE for the entire human race, as is VERY CLEAR to all (except the "Reformed), in John 3:16-18, and many other places in the Bible!

 

[Alan Gross]

The entire chapter 9 of Romans deals with God's Eternal Plan of Salvation.

You pose a request and a question;

Show from the ENTIRE chapter 9, WHERE does the word SALVATION appear? NO WHERE!

I have a request and a question; Show from the ENTIRE chapter 3, of John that you quote below, WHERE does the word SALVATION appear?

ONLY the "Reformed" will see in these passages, "evidence", that God has "elected" them to salvation, and damned the rest of humans to eternal punishment, which goes AGAINST God's own PROMISE, that salvation is FREELY AVAILABLE for the entire human race, as is VERY CLEAR to all (except the "Reformed), in John 3:16-18, and many other places in the Bible!

(Caveat note: I am not 'Reformed' by any definition of the word.
Eternal Election is a Christian Bible and Baptist Doctrine).
...

Romans chapters 9-11, is Pauls many arguments to show God's REJECTION of the Old Testament "elect" people, The Jews, because of their REJECTION of His Ways, and Jesus Christ as THE MESSIAH.

Negative.

"God chose you . . . unto salvation' (2 Thess. 2:13).

"Since men are chosen or elected "unto salvation",
their election must precede salvation.

"This is manifest to all except a certain class of Arminians
who are incapable of understanding plain English.

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16.

THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION.
by T. P. Simmons

IV. ELECTION WAS PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL,
PARTICULAR, AND DISCRIMINATORY.

"Being forced to admit that election of some kind took place in eternity,
some Arminians hold to one of the three...notions:

1. THAT ELECTION IN THE BIBLE HAS REFERENCE,
ONLY TO ISRAEL AS A NATION AND TO THE GENTILES AS A WHOLE,
AND THAT IT IS ONLY AN ELECTION TO POSITION AND ADVANTAGE,
NOT TO ETERNAL LIFE.

"It is said that God chose Israel as a nation, then, in New Testament days, rejected her, and substituted the Gentiles as a whole.

"It is believed by those who hold this view that the classic discussion of election in Rom. 9 and 11 refers not to individual election to eternal life, but only to such corporate election as set forth above.

"The fact that any man can hold such a position as this
only shows to what lengths of folly prejudice will lead one.

"Our reply:

"(1) That in Romans 9 and 11 we have an individual election of Jews
to eternal life, as well as the national election of Israel
to position and advantage, is evident from-

"A. The declaration that God has mercy on whom He will
and hardens whom He will. Rom. 9:18.

"Such a declaration is not applicable to national or corporate election and rejection. It can be applied only to God's dealings with individuals. And that it does so apply becomes more evident as we pursue Paul's discussion further.

"B. The anticipated objection to this manner of dealing with men. Rom. 9:19.

"What is this objection in plain words? As stated by A. N. Arnold it is this: "If it is God's will to harden a man, since His will cannot be successfully resisted, how can He blame hardened sinners?"

"By Prof. David Brown the objection is stated as follows: "This doctrine is incompatible with human responsibility; if God chooses and rejects, pardons and punishes, whom He pleases, why are those blamed who, if rejected by Him, cannot help sinning and perishing?"

"And this same commentator goes on to say that this objection shows "the real nature of the doctrine objected to-that it is Election and Non-election to eternal salvation prior to any difference of personal character; this is the only doctrine that could suggest the objection here stated."

"C. The mention of "vessels of mercy" and "vessels of wrath." Rom. 9:21-23.

"This is not applicable to national or corporate election to position and advantage. In such an election, the non-elect nations and groups cannot justly be represented as "vessels of wrath," because such election does not represent them wholly abandoned to wrath.

"During the days of God's special dealing with the Jews as an elect nation, other nations were not entirely shut out. Individuals of them could partake of the theocratic blessings of Israel by submitting to, and observing, the rites of Israel.

"D. The mention of a portion of Israel as "the election"
and "a remnant according to the election of grace." Rom. 11:5,7.

"In this elect remnant, gathered from an elect nation, we have an election within an election, an election of individuals to eternal life, who belonged to a people whom God elected to the privileges of grace"
(An American Commentary on the New Testament).

"(2) That the Gentiles were not substituted for Jews is evident from-

"A. The fact that Israel has not been rejected
in the sense that her election has been revoked.

"Israel has been temporarily rejected from her national position in God's plan, but, "as touching election," she is still beloved, and will yet be restored to her place (Rom. 11:25-31). The calling of God, whether national, corporate, or individual, is unchangeable (Rom. 11:29).

"Hence all talk of the Gentiles
having been substituted for the Jews is pure drivel.

"B. Paul's argument in Rom. 9:6.

"Paul's argument is that the unbelief of the great body of the Jews
did not make void God's promise to Abraham
on the ground that the promise did not apply to all the seed of Abraham.

"But if the Jews had been rejected as pertaining to election and the Gentiles substituted in their stead, Paul's argument would have run something as follows:

"The choice of Abraham and his seed has not failed: because though Israel has been rejected, the Gentiles have taken their place; and God has a right to choose what nation He will to the privileges of His visible kingdom" (commentary, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown).

"(3) That there is an individual election of Gentiles
as well as of Jews to eternal life is evident from-

"A. Rom. 9:24.

"In this verse, Paul follows his reference to "vessels of mercy . . .afore prepared unto glory" with the statement: "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."

"This shows us clearly that the "vessels of mercy," which are manifestly elect individuals, are made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

"Thus we have an individual election of Gentiles as well as of Jews.

"On this verse Prof. Brown remarks illuminatingly: "Here for the first time in this chapter the calling of the Gentiles is introduced; all before having respect, not to the substitution of the called Gentiles for the rejected Jews, but to the choice of one portion of the same Israel.

"Had Israel's rejection been total, God's promise to Abraham would not have been fulfilled by the substitution of the Gentiles in their room; but Israel's rejection being only partial, the preservation of a 'remnant,' in which the promise was made good, was but 'according to the election of grace.'

"And now, for the first time, the apostle tells us that along with this elect remnant of Israel it is God's purpose to 'take out of the Gentiles a people for His name' (Acts 15:14)."

"B. References to election in other New Testament books.

"These references appear somewhere in this discussion. Hence they need not be mentioned here. Let the reader turn the pages of this chapter and note these references, marking how certainly they refer to an individual election to salvation.

"Note especially 2 Thess. 2:13 in contrast to the theory
that election is only to position and advantage and not to salvation."

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

 

[SavedByGrace]

The entire chapter 9 of Romans deals with God's Eternal Plan of Salvation.

You pose a request and a question;


I have a request and a question; Show from the ENTIRE chapter 3, of John that you quote below, WHERE does the word SALVATION appear?



(Caveat note: I am not 'Reformed' by any definition of the word.
Eternal Election is a Christian Bible and Baptist Doctrine).
...



Negative.

"God chose you . . . unto salvation' (2 Thess. 2:13).

"Since men are chosen or elected "unto salvation",
their election must precede salvation.

"This is manifest to all except a certain class of Arminians
who are incapable of understanding plain English.

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16.

THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION.
by T. P. Simmons

IV. ELECTION WAS PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL,
PARTICULAR, AND DISCRIMINATORY.

"Being forced to admit that election of some kind took place in eternity,
some Arminians hold to one of the three...notions:

1. THAT ELECTION IN THE BIBLE HAS REFERENCE,
ONLY TO ISRAEL AS A NATION AND TO THE GENTILES AS A WHOLE,
AND THAT IT IS ONLY AN ELECTION TO POSITION AND ADVANTAGE,
NOT TO ETERNAL LIFE.

"It is said that God chose Israel as a nation, then, in New Testament days, rejected her, and substituted the Gentiles as a whole.

"It is believed by those who hold this view that the classic discussion of election in Rom. 9 and 11 refers not to individual election to eternal life, but only to such corporate election as set forth above.

"The fact that any man can hold such a position as this
only shows to what lengths of folly prejudice will lead one.

"Our reply:

"(1) That in Romans 9 and 11 we have an individual election of Jews
to eternal life, as well as the national election of Israel
to position and advantage, is evident from-

"A. The declaration that God has mercy on whom He will
and hardens whom He will. Rom. 9:18.

"Such a declaration is not applicable to national or corporate election and rejection. It can be applied only to God's dealings with individuals. And that it does so apply becomes more evident as we pursue Paul's discussion further.

"B. The anticipated objection to this manner of dealing with men. Rom. 9:19.

"What is this objection in plain words? As stated by A. N. Arnold it is this: "If it is God's will to harden a man, since His will cannot be successfully resisted, how can He blame hardened sinners?"

"By Prof. David Brown the objection is stated as follows: "This doctrine is incompatible with human responsibility; if God chooses and rejects, pardons and punishes, whom He pleases, why are those blamed who, if rejected by Him, cannot help sinning and perishing?"

"And this same commentator goes on to say that this objection shows "the real nature of the doctrine objected to-that it is Election and Non-election to eternal salvation prior to any difference of personal character; this is the only doctrine that could suggest the objection here stated."

"C. The mention of "vessels of mercy" and "vessels of wrath." Rom. 9:21-23.

"This is not applicable to national or corporate election to position and advantage. In such an election, the non-elect nations and groups cannot justly be represented as "vessels of wrath," because such election does not represent them wholly abandoned to wrath.

"During the days of God's special dealing with the Jews as an elect nation, other nations were not entirely shut out. Individuals of them could partake of the theocratic blessings of Israel by submitting to, and observing, the rites of Israel.

"D. The mention of a portion of Israel as "the election"
and "a remnant according to the election of grace." Rom. 11:5,7.

"In this elect remnant, gathered from an elect nation, we have an election within an election, an election of individuals to eternal life, who belonged to a people whom God elected to the privileges of grace"
(An American Commentary on the New Testament).

"(2) That the Gentiles were not substituted for Jews is evident from-

"A. The fact that Israel has not been rejected
in the sense that her election has been revoked.

"Israel has been temporarily rejected from her national position in God's plan, but, "as touching election," she is still beloved, and will yet be restored to her place (Rom. 11:25-31). The calling of God, whether national, corporate, or individual, is unchangeable (Rom. 11:29).

"Hence all talk of the Gentiles
having been substituted for the Jews is pure drivel.

"B. Paul's argument in Rom. 9:6.

"Paul's argument is that the unbelief of the great body of the Jews
did not make void God's promise to Abraham
on the ground that the promise did not apply to all the seed of Abraham.

"But if the Jews had been rejected as pertaining to election and the Gentiles substituted in their stead, Paul's argument would have run something as follows:

"The choice of Abraham and his seed has not failed: because though Israel has been rejected, the Gentiles have taken their place; and God has a right to choose what nation He will to the privileges of His visible kingdom" (commentary, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown).

"(3) That there is an individual election of Gentiles
as well as of Jews to eternal life is evident from-

"A. Rom. 9:24.

"In this verse, Paul follows his reference to "vessels of mercy . . .afore prepared unto glory" with the statement: "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."

"This shows us clearly that the "vessels of mercy," which are manifestly elect individuals, are made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

"Thus we have an individual election of Gentiles as well as of Jews.

"On this verse Prof. Brown remarks illuminatingly: "Here for the first time in this chapter the calling of the Gentiles is introduced; all before having respect, not to the substitution of the called Gentiles for the rejected Jews, but to the choice of one portion of the same Israel.

"Had Israel's rejection been total, God's promise to Abraham would not have been fulfilled by the substitution of the Gentiles in their room; but Israel's rejection being only partial, the preservation of a 'remnant,' in which the promise was made good, was but 'according to the election of grace.'

"And now, for the first time, the apostle tells us that along with this elect remnant of Israel it is God's purpose to 'take out of the Gentiles a people for His name' (Acts 15:14)."

"B. References to election in other New Testament books.

"These references appear somewhere in this discussion. Hence they need not be mentioned here. Let the reader turn the pages of this chapter and note these references, marking how certainly they refer to an individual election to salvation.

"Note especially 2 Thess. 2:13 in contrast to the theory
that election is only to position and advantage and not to salvation."

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

You always respond by your cut and paste jobs!

Can't you for once just use your own words

 

[JonC]

Again, why did you leave out v. 23-24? They are clearly connected to the doctrine of election. God created specific people to demonstrate the riches of His glory upon…. “Even us whom He has called”

You are correct we disagree. But that is ok too.

peace to you

You wanted only one verse

Seriously, though, my point is not what I believe or don't believe.

As I stated, I don't hold Arminianism as true. But their position (that third position,) is supported by the text.

God is the first cause of salvation (and election, of course). In fact, God is the only cause for salvation as man's work towards salvation (in that view) does not result in salvation.

The difference is whether or not man can reject God's mercies.


And again.....I am talking about a theology I do not hold.

 

[JonC]

What am I doing?

Looks like I just quoted some things,
and I do like most of them very much.

And then I colored them up, brother(?), with Crayolas!

LA LA LA LA LA TIME!




"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16.













11 "(For the children being not yet born,
neither having done any good or evil,
that the Purpose of God according to Election might stand,
not of works, but of Him that calleth

Put your crayons back in the box!!!!

For my part, I was si.ply saying that other views than presented in the OP agree with the text.

Now, insofar as the "it" being Israel as stayed in the beginning of the passage:

1. When something is abbreviated (like "it") we have to look at what came before.

2. In the passage the subject (the "it") was Israel and how God is just even though all descendents of Israel are not Israel.

3. In the context of the passage (the "it") the purpose of God according to election was a people of God (Israel).

 

[Van]

I have made the following statement….

… If God responds to something mankind does and then makes them “elect”, that is a works based salvation.

Coming to faith is according to grace, not works, therefore statement #1 is false according to scripture.

… If mankind responds to what God has done through the power of God Holy Spirit after election, that demonstrates grace…

Responding to God's grace of revelation given by His word and His believer witnesses, does not require "irresistible grace."

There are numerous passages that support these statements.

There are no passages or verses that support the above statements of Canadyjd.

However, I would like to focus on Romans 9:16.

The question that the Apostle Paul is answering is who are Abraham’s descendants that will inherit the promises of God.

Paul goes into a lengthy discussion of how it is not “children if the flesh” that are descendants, but “children of the promise” that is … those that believe/have faith in God’s promises as opposed to direct physical descendants.

He further explains how God, as a potter, molds individuals for specific purposes… some for honorable use and some for common use.

No such statement is made, only God has the right to make from the same lump some for honor and some for dishonor. The mechanism for receiving one or the other is not disclosed.

And then Paul states in Romans 9:16, it doesn’t depend on he who runs, or he who wills, but in God who has mercy.

Yes, God's choice of election for salvation does not depend on whether the person wills or works for salvation, but on God alone who has mercy.

This lays the foundation of “First Cause”. That is, it is God who acts first in showing mercy. Man’s “will” (to believe) does not come first. Man’s willingness to “run” (work) does not come first.

Yes, firs God reveals His gospel to the lost, and then determines whether to graciously credit their faith as righteousness. If God does, then He sets the person apart spiritually into Christ.

God acts first in showing mercy. There are many passages that support this view and strengthen it, but I’d like to focus on just this one for discussion.

Welcome to all who wish a civil discussion.

peace to you

Final point, Romans 9:16 teaches the lost can will and work to be saved, thus the lost are not prevented from seeking God by "Total Spiritual Inability."

 

[canadyjd]

WOW!!!

This is a classic HIJACKING of what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS, by the so called "Reformed", who will try every trick to FORCE the Word of God, support their FANCIFUL NONSENSE!!!….

Show from the ENTIRE chapter 9, WHERE does the word SALVATION appear? NO WHERE!….

WOW!!! Indeed. Your hatred of the doctrines of grace blind you to the truth.

Please read the OP carefully. The question is whether “election” comes before or after faith.

Romans 9 very clearly tells us God molded us all into “vessels of wrath” or “vessels of mercy”

Paul identifies the vessels of mercy as “even us”, which refers to believers.

The vessels of mercy were created by God for a specific purpose, “to demonstrate the riches of His glory” which were “prepared beforehand” for His vessels of mercy, “even us”.

In summary, Romans 9 very clearly demonstrates God’s purpose in “election”. Those who receive mercy were created beforehand for that very purpose to demonstrate the riches of God’s glory.

Election comes before faith.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Final point, Romans 9:16 teaches the lost can will and work to be saved, thus the lost are not prevented from seeking God by "Total Spiritual Inability."

Romans 9:16 is not speaking of salvation, it is speaking of election.

The lost cannot do anything to grant themselves “election”. It is completely dependent upon God having mercy upon whom He choses.

peace to you

 

[37818]

WOW!!! Indeed. Your hatred of the doctrines of grace blind you to the truth.

Please read the OP carefully. The question is whether “election” comes before or after faith.

Romans 9 very clearly tells us God molded us all into “vessels of wrath” or “vessels of mercy”

Paul identifies the vessels of mercy as “even us”, which refers to believers.

The vessels of mercy were created by God for a specific purpose, “to demonstrate the riches of His glory” which were “prepared beforehand” for His vessels of mercy, “even us”.

In summary, Romans 9 very clearly demonstrates God’s purpose in “election”. Those who receive mercy were created beforehand for that very purpose to demonstrate the riches of God’s glory.

Election comes before faith.

peace to you

Election which has no calling to precede it.
Matthew 22:14.
2 Peter 1:10.

 

[canadyjd]

Election which has no calling to precede it.
Matthew 22:14.
2 Peter 1:10.

These passages do not say faith comes before election. Nor do they say election comes before faith.

I don’t see the relevance to Romans 9 other than the words “election”, “called” and “chosen” are used.

peace to you

 

[37818]

These passages do not say faith comes before election. Nor do they say election comes before faith.

I don’t see the relevance to Romans 9 other than the words “election”, “called” and “chosen” are used.

peace to you

The only point I am making, in Matthew 22:14 and 2 Peter 1:10, the calling can be understood to precede the election.

 

[Silverhair]

WOW!!! Indeed. Your hatred of the doctrines of grace blind you to the truth.

Please read the OP carefully. The question is whether “election” comes before or after faith.

Romans 9 very clearly tells us God molded us all into “vessels of wrath” or “vessels of mercy”

Paul identifies the vessels of mercy as “even us”, which refers to believers.

The vessels of mercy were created by God for a specific purpose, “to demonstrate the riches of His glory” which were “prepared beforehand” for His vessels of mercy, “even us”.

In summary, Romans 9 very clearly demonstrates God’s purpose in “election”. Those who receive mercy were created beforehand for that very purpose to demonstrate the riches of God’s glory.

Election comes before faith.

peace to you

First error @canadyjd, there are no doctrines of grace. That is just a calvinist construct.

The question, as you say, is whether “election” comes before or after faith. Well the bible is quite clear on that. But it appears that you are blinded to the truth of scripture by your commitment to the so called DoG.

1] If God responds to something mankind does and then makes them “elect”, that is a works based salvation.

Response:

Gal 2:16 "...a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,

Rom_4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

2] If mankind responds to what God has done through the power of God Holy Spirit after election, that demonstrates grace

Response:
Still waiting for someone {@canadyjd } to provide scriptural support for this view.

3] God draws men to Himself but men are not numbered among the elect until they believe.

Response:

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Joh 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Rom 1:16 ...the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes...

Rom 10:13 "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[canadyjd]

The only point I am making, in Matthew 22:14 and 2 Peter 1:10, the calling can be understood to precede the election.

It could be connected, I suppose. I think that is a different question from whether election precedes faith. Even so, it would need to be reconciled with Romans 9.

I will ponder on it for a while. Thanks for the comment.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Election which has no calling to precede it.
Matthew 22:14.
2 Peter 1:10.

In Romans 9, Paul clearly teaches God molded (created) specific people for the purpose of demonstrating the riches of His glory upon.

Paul then says, “even us whom He called”.

So the “calling” comes after the “election” in Romans 9.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

WOW!!! Indeed. Your hatred of the doctrines of grace blind you to the truth.

Please read the OP carefully. The question is whether “election” comes before or after faith.

Romans 9 very clearly tells us God molded us all into “vessels of wrath” or “vessels of mercy”

Paul identifies the vessels of mercy as “even us”, which refers to believers.

The vessels of mercy were created by God for a specific purpose, “to demonstrate the riches of His glory” which were “prepared beforehand” for His vessels of mercy, “even us”.

In summary, Romans 9 very clearly demonstrates God’s purpose in “election”. Those who receive mercy were created beforehand for that very purpose to demonstrate the riches of God’s glory.

Election comes before faith.

peace to you

WHY is God LONGSUFFERING with those who are vessels of wrath?

Explain this

 

[37818]

In Romans 9, Paul clearly teaches God molded (created) specific people for the purpose of demonstrating the riches of His glory upon.

Paul then says, “even us whom He called”.

So the “calling” comes after the “election” in Romans 9.

peace to you

Not in those two passages.
. . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . .
. . . Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . .
. . . according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; . . . Which can also be understood that election only takes affect after its call. Or what is the point of the election having a call?