Election for salvation, not election for pork and beans
I said the opposite of the lost granting themselves election. Why pretend otherwise?
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Concerning Romans 9:16
- Thread starter canadyjd
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I said the opposite of the lost granting themselves election. Why pretend otherwise?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, I’d have to go into a deep dive into those passages, but I’d rather focus on Romans 9 for the time being.
If you start a thread focused on one of those passages, I’ll participate.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Your question is answered in the passage. Paul gives the example of Pharaoh as a vessel of wrath created for the purpose of demonstrating God’s glory.
God will demonstrate His glory in two ways. He will bring His wrath upon the vessels of wrath prepared for that purpose. He will demonstrate the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy prepared for that purpose.
All will be done according to God’s timing. God told Abraham that his descendants would go into slavery for 400 years because the sins of the Amorites were not yet complete.
When the sins of the vessels of wrsth are complete, God will demonstrate His wrath and His glory.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Please attempt to read a little more carefully what I post. I didn’t say YOU claimed they were granting themselves election.Election for salvation, not election for pork and beans
I said the opposite of the lost granting themselves election. Why pretend otherwise?
You did say the Romans 9:16 supported the idea that folks could seek God for salvation which you thought disproved total depravity.
I corrected your misunderstanding of the passage by explaining Romans 9:16 isn’t talking about salvation, but rather election.
Therefore, understanding the context, it doesn’t depend on the man who wills or the man who runs (concerning election) but on God who has mercy.
As I stated before, your hatred of the doctrines of grace blind you to the truth of scripture. Every passage, it seems, can be twisted into an anti-doctrines of grace diatribe.
BTW, nothing wrong with pork and beans
They are good for the heart, I hear.peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The ONLY reason that God would be LONGSUFFERING with these "Vessels of wrath", is as we read in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance". The YOU here being the false teachers in 2:1, and the mockers in 3:3!
You simply cannot get around BIBLE TRUTH, that God does not wish ANY wicked person to perish, but that ALL should be saved!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That doesn’t change the truth of Romans 9 that vessels of wrath are specifically created for the purpose of God demonstrating His glory.
And you are not the final authority for the “only”reason God demonstrates longsuffering to the wicked or anything else God decides to do. Unless you are privy to the whole counsel of God, please don’t presume to know the “only” reason for God’s decisions.
If you want to discuss 2 Peter, please start another thread.
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
RUBBISH!
Paul does NOT say that here, nor this is found ANYWHERE in the Bible!
You are MANIPULATING the Inspired Word of God!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I get it… you cannot understand the very plain words of scripture. Your hatred of the doctrines of grace blind you to the truth of God’s Word.
I have not manipulated God’s Word. I only wish to understand it in the context it was written.
I believe anyone without preconceived bias could read Romans 9 and come away understanding God has specifically created two types of folks, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, each with a specific purpose that will demonstrate God’s glory.
That is truth. Accept it or not.
BTW, election comes prior to faith. That too is clear from Romans 9.
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
another ABUSE of what the Bible says
Show WHERE in the entire chapter 9, is "election to salvation" mentioned?
IF this teaching where in any way true, than God will not send people to hell because of their UNBELIEF, and not ACCEPTING Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour!
You guys make it up as you go along, with ZERO Bible support
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Not always. But, thank you. It was every bit as on point as it gets, wasn't it?
You're welcome. Free Bible College, for you.
Oh, but I did. As much as I thought you could bare.
Right here:
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Negative.
Nothing concerning 2:1 or 3:3.
Vs 8 says "But, beloved",
then we have Vs 9 that says within it that he talking to "us-ward",
"but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance."
Try this on for size: "but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any (of us-ward) should perish,
but that all should come to repentance."
That's what he is saying and who he is talking to and about.
In Vs 11, he still talking to the saved,
"what manner of persons ought ye to be
in all holy conversation and godliness,"
Continuing talking to them: Vs 13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise,
look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things,
be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace,
without spot, and blameless."
Then? Another reference to God's long-suffering toward these saved folks,
warning them in Vs 17, to not fall into sin, but to be sure and repent
so as to not perish Vs 9.
15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."
I don't know where you got "you" in that verse, but I got "us-ward".
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
There is, therefore, no scripture that teaches the
"BIBLE TRUTH, that God does not wish ANY wicked person to perish,
but that ALL should be saved",
Once This One is Read Correctly.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
College is not for everyone.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
YOU is in the best textual evidence
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
.
That is of course EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS THERE IN 9:17,18, 21-24!!
17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Of course, you realize the "textual evidence" you may approve,
was spared from the KJV translators, by the Merciful Providence of God,
if it wasn't already around and rejected by them as spurious.
I'd just like to see you gain some understanding of some text.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
WHERE is election to salvation?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Don't worship KJV!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Another false claim. I never claimed the words “election to salvation” are in the text of Romans 9. The “election” concerns God purpose to demonstrate the “riches of His glory”… concerning both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.
The answer to your spewing nonsense which is everything after the words “if this teaching is true….” is also directly addressed in Romans 9 when the questioner ask “why does He still find fault, who can resist His will?”
If you knew and understood God’s Word, you you not have embarrassed yourself by demonstrating your complete ignorance of the truth that your objection is answered by Paul in this passage.
peace to you
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