Concerns of a former charismatic

[Emily]

Well..

In February of 1995 when I was 17 years old, I got saved with some friends I had made at a charismatic church, so obviously, since that is where I heard the gospel at, it made sense that I would attend that particular church.

As a baby Christian, I only knew very little. I was raised as a Catholic, so I knew some of the basics, but actually applying the bible to my life was very very new. I loved it.

I especially loved the worship services. I loved singing and clapping my hands, and lifting my hands up and singing out with my whole heart and soul to my God. I truly had the joy of the Lord.

Then came the day where my youth Pastor asked me if I would like to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is where things kinda got a little weird. They layed hands on me and prayed with me, and nothing happened, but to appease them, I started muttering the first things that came to my mind.. and they bought it., I was a total faker though. I was just mumbling nonsense.
The even stranger thing about this, was that they convinced me that this was the real thing, so I would do this at home in my prayer closet. I started to believe that it was the real thing as well.

I also, have really bad asthma, and they convinced me that I was already healed, and that I just needed to receive my healing. They had me chanting over and over "I believe that I receive".. and kept giving me all the healing scriptures that were in the bible to meditate on.

I still have asthma to this day.

However

Our youth group went on a missions trip to Chihuahua Mexico. We saw so much poverty. It was so hard to believe that people actually lived in the conditions that they did.
We led a number of people to Christ, and layed hands on them and prayed with them, and the prayers came TRUE!!!!

WHat we did, was went around to all the houses in the villages and knocked on doors and told the people that there would be a drama in the park in 5 minutes. Most of the people would go to the park, and we would perform a drama, followed by some preaching and then an invitation.

One time, while knocking on a door, one of our leaders came about an elderly man. THey asked him to come out to the drama, and the man told him that he couldnt walk that far, so no.. he wouldnt be able to go. The leader asked if he could pray for the man, and then man said yes. So Eric, our leader prayed for him and for his healing and then left. In the middle of our drama we all saw an old man walking towards us. The people of the village seemed absolutely shocked. After the play was over we talked to the man.. All he kept saying was "jesus cristo, jesus cristo!" He was completely healed. He gave his cane to our leader Eric as a souveneir.. and what an amazing souveneir.. The fact that just about this whole entire village got saved from this miracle made the whole thing even more real..

the strange thing about me, is even though I SAW THIS WITH MY OWN TWO EYES, I still have doubt. I still doubt this was God. I still think it might have been a coincedence..

Also, we were in another village, and we were talking to a lady and we asked her if there was anything we could pray for. She asked us to pray for rain because it hadnt rained in many months and they had no water. So, we prayed with her for rain.
Later on that very night, in another village that wasnt very far away at all, out of NOWHERE it starts to POUR DOWN RAIN!!!!!

Again, I see this with my very own eyes, but I still doubt.

Isnt that strange? Nonbelievers all the time talk about God giving signs or what-not, and our response is that the one who believes without seeing is blessed, but isnt it funny that even when God clearly shows us and performs miracles, we doubt it is Him?

Well..Time went by and I met my husband and we got married at this church and stayed for about a year. My husband and I left the charismatic church because they got into the perverted gospel of prosperity there, and also because my husband wasnt comfortable with all the speaking in tongues that went on there. When I have visited that church recently, its all "name it and claim it" and tongues without interpreters and they are in serious disobedience. .. Now we find ourselves looking at Baptist Churches, which I LOVE, but my husband isnt the biggest fan. He thinks their praise and worship music is dead, and just standing there singing out of a hymn book is not really praising God. Though, both of us are a lot more comfortable without all the talk of tongues and miraculous healings.

My concern though is this.. it is the comfortable factor. I am a lot more comfortable believing that tongues are not for this time, and I cling to the scripture that proves this like glue, even though, I have read the scripture (1 Cor 13:8) about a thousand times, and it doesnt really say that they have passed.. it just says that they will pass.
I am a lot more comfortable not having to have the faith that God still heals us of our illnesses today. I have heard great a number of baptists say that it has to be in God's will to heal you.. but I have read so many healing scriptures over the 9 years I have been saved, and I dont remember even one of them mentioning that sometimes it isnt God's will to heal you..

so, I think that sometimes I am just an unbelievin' believer. I am more comfortable if I dont have to have any faith in anything exept my salvation..

This worries me.

I have been fed lies at my old church.. I know it. I know I didnt really have a secret "prayer language".. I know that God does not want everyone to be gazillionaire.. I dont believe there is any scriptural proof to praying in tongues as a "prayer language", but I dont see any scriptural proof that tongues WITH AN INTERPRETER has passed away. To be fair, at my old church, about 8 times out of 10, there was an interpreter.. but your "prayer language" was something different altogether.

I am sick of falling into wrong doctrine. I just keep praying that God will show me the truth in His word and that he would convict me as to whether or not these things that I hear are true.. I just wonder if anybody else has these concerns.

Emily

 

[DHK]

You're on the right track Emily. God doesn't heal all the time, nor is it his will to do so. But God does heal in answer to prayer. I believe God answered prayer on your missions trip and healed that man in spite of the Charismatic's doctrinal error. He is a God of love and mercy. Paul, the Apostle couldn't heal all the time.
He couldn't heal Timothy of his "oft infirmities"

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
--I believe that Timothy had dyssentery, a common ailment due to unclean water. Grape juice (unfermented wine) is a common cure for that. Also one must drink plenty fluids when you have dyssenentery, and plenty of fermented wine would just make him drunk.

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
--It would have been good for Trophimus to travel with Paul; Paul wanted it that way. But Paul was forced to leave him at Miletus because he was sick. Why? He could not heal him. It was not God's will. It was not a matter of Paul's faith. It was not a matter of Trophimus's faith. It was a matter of God's will. It was God's will that Trophimus be not healed at this time. Remember Romans 8:28.

Philippians 2:25-27 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
--It was only after some time that Epaphroditus was healed. Paul is careful to say that God healed him, and he was healed only after a long sickness, and only after he was brought to the brink of death. Why couldn't Paul have spared all that suffering and pain and have healed him immediately? Because it wasn't God's will.

In 2Cor. 12, Paul prayed three times to be healed of an infirmity, a thorn in the flesh. Each time the answer from God was the same: "My grace is sufficiet for you. Paul's answer was therefore:

Most gladly therefore will I rather
glory in my infirmities, that the power of
Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

God heals in answer to prayer when it is His will to do so. He doesn't heal all the time. As for tongues, they have ceased, and are not for today. I believe your experience was enough to tell you that.
DHK

 

[Emily]

DHK,

actually.. I didnt learn that.. I learned that I dont have enough faith for something like that whether it is real or not.. its just weird to me.

What about the times where there was a translater?

That is what really messes me up.

A lot of times when Baptists are arguing against tongues, they dont realize that the charismatics have TWO TYPES of tongues..

The type that is done for edification of the church, where this is a translater, and then a second type..the "prayer language"

I have absolutely no problem understanding the the "prayer language" is not evidenced in scripture at all, and that they are very much like the church in corinth with that..

My problem comes in the first type, where a translator is present.. and my church had translators.. that is where Im messed up a little..

that is where I need to bury myself in the word of God for my understanding...

Im only now reading the bible all the way through.. In my 9 years of being saved, I have never done that once. I have always depended on Pastors or teachers representation of the word, and that is how I got lost.. Praise God for conviction though.. I wish I could read the whole bible in a day so that I would have the whole truth, but.. I am a wife and a mom of a toddler, so .. time is tight..

However,

thank you very much for pointing out 2 Cor 12 and the other scriptures.

 

[DHK]

In todays "tongues" which is mostly "gibberish" a combination of nonsense syllables, I believe that the "translator does one of two things:
Either he has his own message that supposedly translates what is being said.
Or there is some kind of demonic activity going on (which does happen on occaision).
In a Vancouver area church a man from Greece visited such a Charismatic church with another pastor and was shocked to here someone speaking in tongues (in perfect Greek) saying over and over again: "I love the devil; I love the devil." etc. Obviously the interpretation would be something else. They hurried out of that church as quickly as they could. There was definite demonic activity going on there. Paul alludes to the same kind of activity going on in Corinth in 1Cor.12:1-4, when he says that

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

If their speaking in tongues was truly of the Holy Spirit there would be no way that would be calling God accursed, or saying such things as "I love the devil." The same things were happening in Corinth as well.

There in no Biblical basis for a prayer language in tongues, and no verse that supports it. Tongues was always given as a gift to the entire church for edification of the entire church, and for the understanding of the entire church. It was not meant for the selfish purpose of anyone individual. When Paul refers to praying in the spirit, he refers to his own spirit. I can pray in the spirit also. That doesn't refer to tongues. We should all seek to pray, being filled with the Holy Spirit, being empowered with the Holy Spirit, throught the Holy Spirit, etc. None of that has to do with speaking in tongues.
Acts 4:31 says that after they prayed they were filled with the Holy Spirit and they spake the Word of God with boldness. But nothing is said of speaking in tongues.

I think that Baptists probably don't have enough teaching on the Holy Spirit, and tend to shy away from it because of the Charismatic movement. But the Holy Spirit still does play a vital role in our lives today.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said you heard---'In a Vancouver area church a man from Greece visited such a Charismatic church with another pastor and was shocked to here someone speaking in
tongues (in perfect Greek) saying over and over again: "I love the devil; I love the devil." etc'

First, a Pentecostal pastor would not allow a person to just repeat one phrase over and over again; even I know that this would not be of God. Whenever there is a Christian who speaks in tongues, there must always be an interpretation if it is of the Lord. Was the man from Greece a Taliban/Muslim parading as a Christian who was disrupting the service, or just a lost/social church person? Sometimes stories are built through people who just do not like Pentecostal types. Even this is a possibility.

When I was age 18-23 I attended a Full Gospel Church for evening worship and at times at the Assembly of God in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. The interpretation in tongues has ALWAYS been uplifting spiritually and has always glorified Jesus, reminding us that He is so much greater than our little problems.

Just because one Baptist pastor runs away with his organist, does not mean that the {for example} that the Southern Baptist Convention agrees with this kind of spiritual rebellion. Should we imply that Baptists are careless as to adultery because they believe in eternal security? I think you see my point.

The Apostle Paul in the Corinthian Church only had the problem found in I Corinthians 14:23. In verse 27 it seems to me that Paul only allowed about three messages in tongues and interpretation which must follow.

In my visits to Assembly of God churches there is not always this phenomenon. When it does happen there has always been only one message in tongues and one explanation through the interpretation of tongues.

 

[DHK]

Ray,
It has been my experience that this is all that modern day tongues is--the repetition of the same phrase or syllables over and over again. Usually they are nonsense syllables that don't make sense. There are websites that "teach" you how to speak in tongues. So, taking this into consideration, and realizing that there would be no one else in the congregation that would understand Greek, a demonic spirit took control of the person's tongue, and he spoke this phrase of words over and over again. How would he be prevented? There were many people, all speaking at the same time in tongues.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'Ray, It has been my experience that this is all that modern day tongues is--the
repetition of the same phrase or syllables over and over again. Usually they
are nonsense syllables that don't make sense.'

Ray is saying, 'You make the above statement but my guess is that you probably have either never or seldom gone to a service where this happens. Am I right? And if you have never been in this kind of service you have no real authority as to what you said above.'

There are websites that "teach" you how to speak in tongues.'

I certainly would not agree with this website idea. The Lord gives gifts to the church not daily lessons on how to speak in tongues.'

You said, 'So, taking this into consideration, and
realizing that there would be no one else in the congregation that would
understand Greek, a demonic spirit took control of the person's tongue, and
he spoke this phrase of words over and over again. How would he be
prevented?'

Only one time when I was in an evening service at Calvary Temple at the time on Irving Street, that the pastor told a woman to sit down and she did. He believed that her action was not of the Lord.'

You said, 'There were many people, all speaking at the same time in tongues.'

If this story is true, then these people were out of order, and if it were in my church I would have them sit down, and if this did not work, I would have the ushers eject them from the congregation; all according to I Corinthians 14:27-28.

I personally, am not Charismatic but I do understand and do not believe that we can expunge I Corinthians twelve and fourteen, otherwise, anyone can say that we should not believe in the Rapture or some other parts of the Word of God. {for example}

 

[cotton]

Miss Emily;
I am by no means knowledgeable on tongues or prayer languages; I have never spoken in tongues but can't say whether others do or don't. My Mother has told me that she has spoken in tongues though. On prayer languages, we have a lady in our synagogue that says she does this; my question is: is this similar to what Hammah does in 1 Samuel 1:12-16?
Thanks,
Cotton

 

[Emily]

cotton..

I dont think so. There, Hannah was just praying but no words were coming out of her mouth..

The "prayer language" that I was taught was nothing more than jibberish and muttering and blah blah blah..

As far as the tongue speaking that went on in my church, usually it was during songs.. the person (usually 1 of 3-4 different people who had the gift) would stand up, and it would seem as though they were saying something in a different language. It wasnt repetative at all. Afterwards, somebody else would stand up with an interpretation. It was a very serious time, and not at all like what I hear people talking about when they speak abour charismatic churches..

As weird as I always thought that that was, I have to say, that they were very good actors/actresses..

but there were other problems with that church, such as their government. A middle aged divorced lady was at the head. Her kids were the other Pastors that would take turns speaking, and they headed up 4 other churches, all with their same government. It might not sound weird, but it seems kind of spooky to me.. like they started their own denomination.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Cotton,

I know you did not ask me the question from I Samuel, but I do not think that Hannah was offering a unique prayer language before the Lord. The Bible says that ' . . . her voice was not heard.'

As most of us know it appears that the 'gift of tongues' was only experienced by the Corinthian Church. Maybe someone will disagree with me about this, but I do not think the Scripture records that this phenomenon occurred in any other the other churches.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'Ray, It has been my experience that this is all that modern day tongues is--the
repetition of the same phrase or syllables over and over again. Usually they
are nonsense syllables that don't make sense.'

Ray is saying, 'You make the above statement but my guess is that you probably have either never or seldom gone to a service where this happens. Am I right? And if you have never been in this kind of service you have no real authority as to what you said above.'

Your guess is wrong Ray. Third world countries are very much different than western nations. The various Charismatic groups such as Full Gospel Assembly, United Pentecostal, Jesus Only, and various others have infiltrated these areas, as have other cults. Unlike other nations there are very few church buildings. Congregations sit on mats on the ground. Many people do have sound systems however, to get their message across to as much as the community as possible. One can easily go and observe any given group carry on their service in the open. I have done that many times. I don't have to go far often. Sometimes you can hear them from the top of your roof. (Think of Peter praying on the top of his).

I was asked to preach to a group of people in a village area. They had all gathered together to hear me preach--a visitor in their area. As I began to open in prayer, dozens stood up and began to speak in tongues--pure gibberish--nonsense syllables. I preached the gospel, but I included much of the truths taught in 1Cor.14 concerning the truth about the gift of tongues. Unknow to me was that these people (many of them), had come from a "Jesus Only" background where they teach that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation. Many of those people got saved that evening. Many others got angry. I talked with some of them afterward and had a Bible study with them. The leader of this group "who spoke in tongues more than them all," did not have a clue how to be saved. He thought that tongues saved, but did not know the plan of salvation. These people were totally deceived, trusting in an experience rather than in the Word of God.

There are websites that "teach" you how to speak in tongues.'

I certainly would not agree with this website idea. The Lord gives gifts to the church not daily lessons on how to speak in tongues.'

It is some of these same Charismatic churches that sponsor such websites. The Mormons speak in tongues. Does that make tongues a gift of the Holy Spirit?

You said, 'So, taking this into consideration, and realizing that there would be no one else in the congregation that would understand Greek, a demonic spirit took control of the person's tongue, and he spoke this phrase of words over and over again. How would he be prevented?'

Only one time when I was in an evening service at Calvary Temple at the time on Irving Street, that the pastor told a woman to sit down and she did. He believed that her action was not of the Lord.'

Very few Charismatic churches have any control any longer. Peole speak in tongues at random; many at the same time--both men and women--almost all without any interpretation. It is mad chaos and confusion. The entire atmosphere to one who is not accustomed to it might seem to be demonic. But it definitely is not of God. It is an aura based entirely on the flesh and the emotions. It plays on the emotions, the carnal nature of man. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

You said, 'There were many people, all speaking at the same time in tongues.'

If this story is true, then these people were out of order, and if it were in my church I would have them sit down, and if this did not work, I would have the ushers eject them from the congregation; all according to I Corinthians 14:27-28.

True enough. The people need to be taught the truth. But when the Charismatic people themselves beleive that their chaos is perfectly acceptable before the Lord, how can they be taught the things that you are advocating. They don't see what they are doing is wrong.

I personally, am not Charismatic but I do understand and do not believe that we can expunge I Corinthians twelve and fourteen, otherwise, anyone can say that we should not believe in the Rapture or some other parts of the Word of God. {for example}

We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. What do these chapters say about spiritual gifts. Even if you disagree about the majority of the gifts, the Word of God is very clear about the gift of tongues in all three of these chapters 12,13,14. Tongues have ceased for many reason, if for no other reason than a fulfillment of prophecy. They were a sign to the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22). The Jews did not believe this sign, and as Isaiah prophesied, they were judged; the city of Jerusalem was destroyed along with the Temple, and the nation of Israel scattered in 70 A.D. Tongues have ceased since then. Its purpose was finished.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. What do these chapters say about
spiritual gifts. Even if you disagree about the majority of the gifts, the Word
of God is very clear about the gift of tongues in all three of these chapters
12,13,14. Tongues have ceased for many reason, if for no other reason
than a fulfillment of prophecy.'

Ray is saying, 'You are going to have to give me Scripture for your above concept, so I can return my view of your alleged Scriptural basis.'

You said, 'They were a sign to the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22).

I am saying, 'That I agree with you on this point except this sign cannot be assigned only to Jews, because in fact, the Corinthian Church was a Gentile city of sinners, located below Greece, and located on the narrow isthmis of Achaia. Corinth had two harbors one on the Aegean Sea and one on the Adriatic Sea, and therefore, it was a seaport city. It was a city of commerce and was notorious for profligacy and licentiousness.

'Yes, the 'gift of tongues' is a sign to the unsaved people. Prophecy is different and serves mainly the saved/Christian in growing them up in the Christian faith,' as you also told us.

You said, 'The Jews did not believe this sign, and as Isaiah
prophesied, they were judged; the city of Jerusalem was destroyed along
with the Temple, and the nation of Israel scattered in 70 A.D.'

Ray is saying, 'Even the Jews in Corinth would have remained in a lost condition, even if they believed the sign. Salvation requires faith in Jesus Christ as personal Savior.'

You said, 'Tongues have ceased since then. Its purpose was finished.'

Ray is saying, 'No one is allowed to X out passages of Scripture as some non-Charismatic people suggest. Since we are under the New Covenant, I am surprised that some one has not already said that we don't need to read or study the O.T. because the Old Covenant is in the distant past. And since some Christians think the Book of Revelation cannot be understood because of some symbolism, or they spiritualize it, {making its passages and teachings non-literal in meaning } or say it is in distant past generations, we may as well cut out Revelation as being revelent for today as well. How much of the Bible will we have left it you get to expunge I Cor. 12,13,14?

The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. by Titus has nothing to do with the 'gifts of the Spirit.'
It means only that the Jew were judged for not accepting Christ and were dispersed into all the nations of the world. As you know, they are coming back to Israel even from Russia, which is part of end time eschatology, [Ezekiel 36:24 & 37:21] for the purpose of evangelizing them once again. [Romans 11:23-24 & 26-27]

Israel will be restored in the time of the future Great Tribulation and during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. In Ezekiel 36:5 God calls Israel, 'My land.' Moreover, He/God calls the Israelites ' . . . My people Israel.'

Regards,
Ray

 

[Meercat]

Emily,

Unfortunately much to the annoyance of many on this wonderful board, (and I sincerily mean that), I'm going to give you the same advice I came across when I was in despair over what WAS Truth and correct doctrine?......You mentioned you were raised Catholic. So, I'm going to recommend to you to start by checking out a book called "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keating. I could give you more sources if you are interested, your story really impressed me because I have walked a mile in your shoes. I can relate to the pain. Having remembered that I was baptized a Catholic, I decided to check into what the Catholic Church teaches rather than hear what they allegedly teach according to "non-catholics". Even if you think you KNOW what they teach, I bet you don't or you would never have left. Give it another shot. In the meantime, this is not necessarily the most friendly Pro-Catholic forum being the Baptist Board and all, but I really enjoy it because almost everyone here is only interested in spreading enthusiasm for a life of following Christ. This is a very fun site. My prayers will be with you. - God bless! - Michelle

 

[atestring]

Emily I noticed on your profile that you are seeking for a church. I pray that you will be placed in the Body of Christ at the Place that God has for you.
Many questions are answered by being under the unbrella of a church and a Godly Pastor.

Find a church that follows God's word and one that does not quench the Holy Spirit.
When the Word of God and the Holy Spirit are honored and the worship is in Spirit and Truth God will see that growth comes to ones life.
Look for people that love God and love people.

 

[Emily]

Actually, I think we found our church..

again, it is not my first pick, but I DO believe this time, that it is a place where my husband can grow. We should be meeting with the Pastor sometimes this week so I can ask all of my questions..

It is a southern baptist church.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Emily:
[QB] Well..

We led a number of people to Christ, and layed hands on them and prayed with them, and the prayers came TRUE!!!!

....
One time, while knocking on a door, one of our leaders came about an elderly man. THey asked him to come out to the drama, and the man told him that he couldnt walk that far, so no.. he wouldnt be able to go. The leader asked if he could pray for the man, and then man said yes. So Eric, our leader prayed for him and for his healing and then left. In the middle of our drama we all saw an old man walking towards us. The people of the village seemed absolutely shocked. After the play was over we talked to the man.. All he kept saying was "jesus cristo, jesus cristo!" He was completely healed. He gave his cane to our leader Eric as a souveneir.. and what an amazing souveneir.. The fact that just about this whole entire village got saved from this miracle made the whole thing even more real..

This is a case of God's answering prayer and healing someone - but not necessarily of the "gift of healing".

To claim the "gift of healing" you would need to see something "consistent" in the ministry of one individual.

the strange thing about me, is even though I SAW THIS WITH MY OWN TWO EYES, I still have doubt. I still doubt this was God. I still think it might have been a coincedence..

I would say that this doubt is not serving you well. Better to err on the side of "faith". Clearly the entire village knew the history of that man. To say that he "just so happened to get well without God's help thankyou" in response to the prayer of faith - is not "the best course of action".

This along with the prayer for rain - "Ask and you shall receive" this is a case of answered prayer -- not of the "Gift of rainmaking".

Now we find ourselves looking at Baptist Churches, which I LOVE, but my husband isnt the biggest fan. He thinks their praise and worship music is dead, ane just standing there singing out of a hymn book is not really praising God.

You have to give the Charismatic churches credit for pushing the group back to a more "real - interactive" and fully expectant form of worship - and "away from dry formalism". Credit where credit is due.

Though, both of us are a lot more comfortable without all the talk of tongues and miraculous healings.

Good and bad. Good for you - because I still don't know that I have ever seen the gift of tongues or the gift of healing in a Charismatic service -- so what they are claiming to have - does not appear to be the genuine article.

Bad for you - because Paul commands us "to desire EARNESTLY spiritual gifts". 1Cor 14:1

The failings or errors of "Somebody else" does not make a kind of "excuse for you" or for me not to "desire earnestly spiritual gifts" in obedience to the 1Cor 14:1 Word of God.

My concern though is this.. it is the comfortable factor. I am a lot more comfortable believing that tongues are not for this time, and I cling to the scripture that proves this like glue, even though, I have read the scripture (1 Cor 13:8) about a thousand times, and it doesnt really say that they have passed.. it just says that they will pass.

In fact 1Cor 13 says "prophecy", "tongues" and "knowledge" will end in that future day when we "see face to face" at the return of Christ.

Some Christians today argue that these have already passed. They have finally convinced me that for them at least - knowledge has certainly passed away.

Keep the faith Emily and don't get caught in the trap of those who would "delete the Word of God" for you. 1Cor 12 "is valid" and 1Cor 14 "is valid" today and 1Cor 13 is correct in the statements it makes about that future day when we "see face to face" and are "known even as we are known" the day when we "See Christ as He is" the day of His return.

THEN - after leaving battlefield earth at the rapture and going to heaven - then and only then - these powerful gifts give to Christ's persecuted church on earth -- will no longer be needed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Emily - to put it in a nutshell - I think you may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

I seriously doubt whether any of the Charismatic churches actually have the gift of tongues or of healing in what is actually happening in their services.

But that does not mean that they don't actually experience answered prayer - or that the dry formal services in other churches are to be embraced instead of an expectant, Bible promise claiming format.

This is not an argument for charismatic Baptists and against non-charismatic ones. Rather I am saying that we should see where the errors are and avoid them while clinging to the truths that are there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. What do these chapters say about
spiritual gifts. Even if you disagree about the majority of the gifts, the Word
of God is very clear about the gift of tongues in all three of these chapters
12,13,14. Tongues have ceased for many reason, if for no other reason
than a fulfillment of prophecy.'

Ray is saying, 'You are going to have to give me Scripture for your above concept, so I can return my view of your alleged Scriptural basis.'

1Cor.13:8-13--teaches that tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge will cease. I believe that the context of the passage best teaches that when the Bible was completed then these gifts ceased: "when that which was Perfect (or complete) was come (i.e. the Bible), then that which was in part (the gifts) were done away.
1Cor.14:21,22 teach the same thing about tongues--they are a sign to the unbelieving Jew. When the sign no longer needs to be used, it becomes useless, and the owner of the sign ceases to use it any longer. Thus it became with the gift of tongues. Its purpose had been fulfilled by the time of the judgement of the nation of Israel in 70 A.D. The sign was therefore useless. God had no further use for it any longer. It ceased to be.

You said, 'They were a sign to the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22).

I am saying, 'That I agree with you on this point except this sign cannot be assigned only to Jews, because in fact, the Corinthian Church was a Gentile city of sinners, located below Greece, and located on the narrow isthmis of Achaia. Corinth had two harbors one on the Aegean Sea and one on the Adriatic Sea, and therefore, it was a seaport city. It was a city of commerce and was notorious for profligacy and licentiousness.

Your description of Corinth is only partially right, and your description of the Corinthian church is totally wrong. All one has to do is read the Book of Acts, in particular Acts 18:1-17. Those 17 verses describe Paul's 18 month stay in Corinth.

Acts 18:1-2 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
--The first thing that Paul found in Corinth were Jews to stay with while planting a church there.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
--Was the church maily Jewish, or mainly Greek? There were probably more Jews than Greeks, seeing that they met in the synagogue every sabbath. Paul went to the Jew first, then to the Greek. It is only at this point in his ministry that he begins to turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
--The chief ruler of the synagogue (obviously a Jew, and those of his household, as well as many other Corinthians were saved. Here was the real beginning of this church. By now there were a good number of both Jews and Gentiles that had been saved.

God's Assurance to Paul:
Acts 18:10-11 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Acts 18:14 And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you:
--Paul made enough of an impact to stir up the Jewish community, who would in turn try to influence the Roman authorities against Paul. What does this tell us about the city? It tells us that there was a large population of Jews in the city, large enough that they thought that they were able to sway the judgement of a Roman governor, just as the Jews in Jerusalem were able to influence Pilate. It was a wicked city, yes. But the Jews had their presence there, and the church was as much Jewish background as it was Gentile background.

'Yes, the 'gift of tongues' is a sign to the unsaved people. Prophecy is different and serves mainly the saved/Christian in growing them up in the Christian faith,' as you also told us.

No, it is not simply a sign to unsaved people, but specifically unsaved Jews of the first century. The sign of 1Cor.14:21,22 is just as specific as the sign given in Isaiah 7:14--Behold the Lord himself shall give you a sign: a virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son..." What was the sign? In Isaiah, prophetically it was a virgin bearing a son--the virgin birth of Christ. It happened only one time in history, never to be repeated again. It was a sign.
The same is true in 1Cor.14:21,22.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--Tongues are a sign.
To whom? Verse 21 says that they are a sign "to this people," that is the nation of Israel. Paul quoting the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, says that with men of other tongues will I speak to this people. This people is Israel. Tongues were a sign for the nation of Israel.
A sign to Whom? Verse 22 is very plain. Tongues is a sign to the unbelieving...the unbelieving Jew that is. You can't divorce this verse from verse 21. You can't pull it out of its context and make it say "unbelieving American." It doesn't say that. It is speaking of the nation of Israel. The two verses are connected with the connective "wherefore."

You said, 'The Jews did not believe this sign, and as Isaiah
prophesied, they were judged; the city of Jerusalem was destroyed along
with the Temple, and the nation of Israel scattered in 70 A.D.'

Ray is saying, 'Even the Jews in Corinth would have remained in a lost condition, even if they believed the sign. Salvation requires faith in Jesus Christ as personal Savior.'

Salvation is by faith in Christ. "For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." "Whosoever" includes both Jew and Gentile. Those Jews which believed the sign of tongues believed the gospel and were saved. The evidence of that was the 3,000 that got saved on the Day of Pentecost. They saw and heard the miracle of tongues. It got their attention. Certainly it was the message of Peter, and the conviction of the Holy Spirit in the end result that brought them to the Lord, but it was the sign of tongues that indicated to them that these simple Galileans were speaking God's message, and that this message was authentic. It was a sign from God, to these unbelieving Jews (3,000 of which got saved that day), and many others did not.
The sign didn't bring salvation to the Jews. It authenticated the message for the Jews. If the Jews didn't beleive the message was genuinely from God, they wouldn't believe the message anyway.

You said, 'Tongues have ceased since then. Its purpose was finished.'

Ray is saying, 'No one is allowed to X out passages of Scripture as some non-Charismatic people suggest. Since we are under the New Covenant, I am surprised that some one has not already said that we don't need to read or study the O.T. because the Old Covenant is in the distant past. And since some Christians think the Book of Revelation cannot be understood because of some symbolism, or they spiritualize it, {making its passages and teachings non-literal in meaning } or say it is in distant past generations, we may as well cut out Revelation as being revelent for today as well. How much of the Bible will we have left it you get to expunge I Cor. 12,13,14?

I am surprised by such logic coming from you.
"No one is allowed to X-out passages of Scripture"
Well, just who do you think or accuse of that is so-called Xing-out Scripture? I don't get it Ray.
Were you there at the burning bush when God talked to Moses? God doesn't talk to man that way any more. Should we rip that out of our Bible also?
Were you there with the three Hebrew children when they walked through the fiery furnace heated seven times hotter? That was a one time event in history Ray. God's not going to repeat it just for you. So should we tear it out of our Bible??
God spoke to Samuel in an audible voice, to Joseph in dreams, to Moses as it were face to face. He doesn't do it that way any more. Shall we throw out the whole Old Testament? I just don't know where you are coming from Ray. I don't get your logic. The Day of Pentecost was a one time event in history. It happened sometime around 30 A.D., in history, and will never again be repeated, just like Peter walking on water will never be repeated. They are historical events. The Book of Acts is a historical book.
The gift of tongues was a gift given by God in the first century. It ceased. It had its function for that part of history. You might look at it as a part of God's history. It doesn't continue on any longer. It ceased more than 1900 years ago. We are not expunging anything out of the Bible, but interpreting the Bible in its proper context. What is witnessed today in the name of tongues does not fit the criteria of the tongues of the Bible, so why should go along with this imitation of the real gift that God describes in His Word?

The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. by Titus has nothing to do with the 'gifts of the Spirit.'
It means only that the Jew were judged for not accepting Christ and were dispersed into all the nations of the world. As you know, they are coming back to Israel even from Russia, which is part of end time eschatology, [Ezekiel 36:24 & 37:21] for the purpose of evangelizing them once again. [Romans 11:23-24 & 26-27]

You said: The Jews were judged for not accepting Christ and were dispersed into all the nations of the world."
That is precisely why tongues was given. It was a sign to the unbelieving Jews that the message of the gospel was an authentic message. They needed to believe the gospel to be saved. If they didn't judgement would come. And it did, just as you described it. It came because of their own unbelier, as you said. The tongues was a sign of that unbelief. Isaiah foretold of it. What did he say:
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

700 years before Christ was born Isaiah promised that God would speak to them in foreign languages as a sign, and yet they would not listen.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
--They refused this sign; they refused to believe.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
--This was God's promise 700 years before Christ came; Isaiah told them of the coming Redeemer. But when He came, they rejected Him. Isaiah told them of a sign--tongues. But still they rejected Him.

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
--Therefore judgement would come, and judgement did come.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it
--They (their city) was trodden down by it (their enemies--the Romans). The judgement was fulfilled in 70 A.D., not long after the sign of tongues was given to the nation of Israel, though they had known about it for more than 700 years.

Israel will be restored in the time of the future Great Tribulation and during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. In Ezekiel 36:5 God calls Israel, 'My land.' Moreover, He/God calls the Israelites ' . . . My people Israel.'

Yes, I believe that Israel will once again be restored as you say. But the gift of tongues served out its purpose in the first century. It was a sign. When the sign is no longer needed you take it down. That is what God did. For the Jew, tongues was a sign pointing to the gospel message. The Jew doesn't need that sign any longer. There are two reasons for that.
1. They had their chance. They didn't believe the sign. And judgement came.
2. The sign has been replaced. We have the entire Word of God--the Bible, wherein the message--the gospel is found. That is what the sign pointed to originally. Now that we have the completed book, we don't need the sign. We have the perfect Word of God instead.
DHK

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by DHK:
I believe that the context of the passage best teaches that when the Bible was completed then these gifts ceased: "when that which was Perfect (or complete) was come (i.e. the Bible), then that which was in part (the gifts) were done away... Now that we have the completed book, we don't need the sign. We have the perfect Word of God instead.
DHK

1Cor. 13.8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

12.b gives the meaning, I think, of the 'perfect coming'. It is, I believe, the experience of the saints at the Resurrection. "We shall see face to face." Has prophecy ceased? Prophecy is the gift of speaking the Word of God to the present generation. Has God ceased speaking to the generations after the Bible was put together? Has knowledge ceased? I think not. Many of the doctrines we hold were formulated after the NT canon as written.

 

[atestring]

Emily,
I am happy to hear this. A church that your husband can grow is the key to a successful Christian life in your family.
Anyone that gets plugged in to a Church that Honors Gods Word and Honors The Holy Spirit will grow successfully.