Romans 8: 26-27 cannot be used to justify some kind of prayer language. Read what it says and keep it in context--"the Spirit Himself make intercession FOR US with groanings THAT CANNOT BE UTTERED" There is no mention of a prayer language here, especially one that involves babbling. If it cannot be uttered, it cannot be uttered in any way shape or fashion. Keep looking for that verse that supports the charismatic teaching of a prayer language.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Concerns of a former charismatic
- Thread starter Emily
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
Tam,
I'm on your side in this matter even though I do not speak in tongues. I also, trust Romans 8:26-27 when sometimes I do not know how or what to pray for . . . I do not believe that anyone has the right to expunge I Cor. 12 or 14., from the Word of God. The Lord Himself gives His gifts as He sees fit.
I do think that the way to keep filled with the Holy Spirit is to love Jesus and strive to become like Him. [Rom. 8:29] All Christians need to be 'conformed to His Image' and Likeness in all areas of His Being. This does not mean that we are saved by our 'works or efforts' but we do need to be like our Savior.
My concern is about those who claim they are filled with the Spirit and to mature Christians they notice different areas of carnality. They are indwelled by the Spirit, but in my way of thinking, they are not constantly being filled with the Spirit. To have this happen in our lives we have to be students of His Word, witnessing, and having an intimate relationship to Him through prayer. {either without tongues or with them} I know there are saved people who still remain carnal, but this is not at all pleasing to the Lord.
If a person is living carelessly, committing willful sins, then they are foolish to think that because they can still speak in tongues, that they are still filled with the Holy Spirit. This is self-deception! I am saying they are still saved, but they are a poor testimony to Christ's saving grace.
I hope you agree with me.
Dr. Berrian
I'm on your side in this matter even though I do not speak in tongues. I also, trust Romans 8:26-27 when sometimes I do not know how or what to pray for . . . I do not believe that anyone has the right to expunge I Cor. 12 or 14., from the Word of God. The Lord Himself gives His gifts as He sees fit.
I do think that the way to keep filled with the Holy Spirit is to love Jesus and strive to become like Him. [Rom. 8:29] All Christians need to be 'conformed to His Image' and Likeness in all areas of His Being. This does not mean that we are saved by our 'works or efforts' but we do need to be like our Savior.
My concern is about those who claim they are filled with the Spirit and to mature Christians they notice different areas of carnality. They are indwelled by the Spirit, but in my way of thinking, they are not constantly being filled with the Spirit. To have this happen in our lives we have to be students of His Word, witnessing, and having an intimate relationship to Him through prayer. {either without tongues or with them} I know there are saved people who still remain carnal, but this is not at all pleasing to the Lord.
If a person is living carelessly, committing willful sins, then they are foolish to think that because they can still speak in tongues, that they are still filled with the Holy Spirit. This is self-deception! I am saying they are still saved, but they are a poor testimony to Christ's saving grace.
I hope you agree with me.
Dr. Berrian
The Holy Spirit is not the gift of tongues. That's a leap of blind faith.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]When did I ever say that the Holy Spirit was the "gift of tongues?" Never! </font>[/QUOTE]Yes you did. You inferred it. Here is what you said:
When you prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ and you spoke with other tongues, that was your evidence, from God, that you had been filled with His Spirit.
Then to support this heretical statement you pull this verse out of its context:
Thus the obvious conclusion to those reading your post is that the gift of tongues that Brian received was the gift spoken of in the verse that you quoted, the gift of the Holy Ghost. Like I said, it is a blind leap of faith to say that the gift of the Holy Ghost is the gift of tongues. It ain't there.
DHK
Why would you call a prayer language/groanings "babbling?"
If Romans 8:26 says the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered,...why would you go against what the Lord has left for His people?
Jesus "groaned in the Spirit." Would you call that type of prayer "babbling?"
John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.
MEE
You're a hoot Tam. I've never yet met a person who can utter something that cannot be uttered;Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Emily,
The prayer language is described in the following verses:
Romans 8-26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Sometimes don't know what to pray for someone, what to pray about some situation, but the Holy Spirit knows, so thats when we pray in the spirit, (in our prayer language).
who can pray something that cannot be prayed;
who can say something that cannot be said;
who can vocalize something that cannot be vocalized.
You live in the real of the supernatural, doing the impossible, doing only what God can do. Dare I ask who you are?? (or claim to be)?
DHK
tamborine lady
Active Member
DHK quoted me and then added his own comments.
Romans 8-26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Sometimes don't know what to pray for someone, what to pray about some situation, but the Holy Spirit knows, so thats when we pray in the spirit, (in our prayer language).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're a hoot Tam. I've never yet met a person who can utter something that cannot be uttered;
who can pray something that cannot be prayed;
who can say something that cannot be said;
who can vocalize something that cannot be vocalized.
You live in the real of the supernatural, doing the impossible, doing only what God can do. Dare I ask who you are?? (or claim to be)?
DHK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The spirit gives us words to say since we do not know what to say. I feel sorry for you because you do not understand your own bible, which you say is perfect!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Be glad to tell you who I am:
I am a child of the King
I operate in some of the gifts of the spirit
I do the will of God to the best of my ability.
And I try to be open minded as far as what some other people believe.
But I draw the line at narrow minded people, who think they know everything, and in the end only know enough to get themselves and others that they try to teach in trouble!! Remember the scripture about the blind leading the blind? They both fall in the ditch!
And now that you brought it up, WHO ARE YOU ? You spend so much time trying to straighten the rest of us out, that I'm surprised you have time to be a missionary to anybody.
What denomination are you? Have you heard of the Shepparding movement?? Does your wife call you "Lord"?
Are you in complete authority in your home? Do the women in your congregation have to follow the men without question, no matter what happens???
Working for Him,
Tam,
'He makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be utteredOriginally posted by tamborine lady:
DHK quoted me and then added his own comments.
Romans 8-26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Sometimes don't know what to pray for someone, what to pray about some situation, but the Holy Spirit knows, so thats when we pray in the spirit, (in our prayer language).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're a hoot Tam. I've never yet met a person who can utter something that cannot be uttered;
who can pray something that cannot be prayed;
who can say something that cannot be said;
who can vocalize something that cannot be vocalized.
You live in the real of the supernatural, doing the impossible, doing only what God can do. Dare I ask who you are?? (or claim to be)?
DHK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The spirit gives us words to say since we do not know what to say. I feel sorry for you because you do not understand your own bible, which you say is perfect!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Be glad to tell you who I am:
I am a child of the King
I operate in some of the gifts of the spirit
I do the will of God to the best of my ability.
And I try to be open minded as far as what some other people believe.
But I draw the line at narrow minded people, who think they know everything, and in the end only know enough to get themselves and others that they try to teach in trouble!! Remember the scripture about the blind leading the blind? They both fall in the ditch!
And now that you brought it up, WHO ARE YOU ? You spend so much time trying to straighten the rest of us out, that I'm surprised you have time to be a missionary to anybody.
What denomination are you? Have you heard of the Shepparding movement?? Does your wife call you "Lord"?
Are you in complete authority in your home? Do the women in your congregation have to follow the men without question, no matter what happens???
Working for Him,
Tam,
You either don't believe this statement or don't understand it. Which?
DHK
As I said before, "Never have you heard me say that the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" is the "Gift of tongues!" Your right.."It ain't there."
First let me refresh your memory DHK! Brian didn't say that he received "the gift of tongues!" Divers kinds of tongues/gift of tongues can only be used after one has received the Spirit of God/baptism of the Holy Ghost.
He said that he received "the baptism of the Holy Ghost" back on page two.
The gift as you see in the gift of the Holy Ghost, in the Greek, is "dorea." This indicates salvation, given by God.
The gift that Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 12, divers kinds of tongues, in the Greek is "charisma."
One cannot have the "charisma gift of tongues" unless you have first experienced the "dorea" gift of tongues.
The "dorea" gift of tongues is that which accompanies the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and the "charisma" gift of tongues is given by God to some, but not to all believers, as Paul mentions when he asks the question, "Do all speak with tongues?"
All speaking in tongues, as the Spirit of God gives the utterance, comes from God, but they are different in purpose.
MEE
Emily,
Your story has a ring of familiarity. I too was saved in a charismatic church in 1998. I was taught:
1) to speak in tongues
2) name it and claim it theology
3) Modern prophets/ apostles
and many other charismatic and Word-faith teachings. As a I grew in the Lord I began to read and study the Word of God. I joined a local BSF group in 2001. I met many many non-charismatic christians that lived fulfilling and victorious lives. And they didn't speak in tongues, or had propetic giftings, or spoke to demons, etc. As I read and studied God's Word more thoroughly, I realized that many of the teachings of my church, I simply didn't see any Biblical basis. I still attend the same church. I have been praying and asking God for guidance to lead me to another church. After being on BB for the past few months I began to realize that my beliefs were pretty much in line with Baptist beliefs. So I am looking for a local Baptist church. My situation is complicated because I entered a courtship with a young lady in my church and she is very charismatic in her beliefs. We got into a HUGE argument over the issues of tongues. The argument was pretty silly and useless, really. When I disagree with certain teachings I get hammered.
I am so happy that you and your husband have found a new church.
In Christ,
ChurchBoy
Your story has a ring of familiarity. I too was saved in a charismatic church in 1998. I was taught:
1) to speak in tongues
2) name it and claim it theology
3) Modern prophets/ apostles
and many other charismatic and Word-faith teachings. As a I grew in the Lord I began to read and study the Word of God. I joined a local BSF group in 2001. I met many many non-charismatic christians that lived fulfilling and victorious lives. And they didn't speak in tongues, or had propetic giftings, or spoke to demons, etc. As I read and studied God's Word more thoroughly, I realized that many of the teachings of my church, I simply didn't see any Biblical basis. I still attend the same church. I have been praying and asking God for guidance to lead me to another church. After being on BB for the past few months I began to realize that my beliefs were pretty much in line with Baptist beliefs. So I am looking for a local Baptist church. My situation is complicated because I entered a courtship with a young lady in my church and she is very charismatic in her beliefs. We got into a HUGE argument over the issues of tongues. The argument was pretty silly and useless, really. When I disagree with certain teachings I get hammered.
I am so happy that you and your husband have found a new church.
In Christ,
ChurchBoy
THanks churchboy
We havent joined yet, but we met with the Pastor this evening, and it looks like it may just happen.
It was very hard for me to leave my charismatic church.. It was the only church family I ever knew.. I LOVED my Pastor.. I knew and still know that he walked with God.(He passed away just about 2 years ago)...
My husband however was always uncomfortable with it, and because he kept waking up on Sundays not wanting to go, we slowly melted away from the church.. thats the best way of putting it anyways..
I will hope and pray that you and that girl find resolve and that you will find a good baptist church..
Emily
We havent joined yet, but we met with the Pastor this evening, and it looks like it may just happen.
It was very hard for me to leave my charismatic church.. It was the only church family I ever knew.. I LOVED my Pastor.. I knew and still know that he walked with God.(He passed away just about 2 years ago)...
My husband however was always uncomfortable with it, and because he kept waking up on Sundays not wanting to go, we slowly melted away from the church.. thats the best way of putting it anyways..
I will hope and pray that you and that girl find resolve and that you will find a good baptist church..
Emily
tamborine lady
Active Member
Since you didn't answer my questions, I choose not to answer yours.
Matthew 7-6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
All you do is cast aspersions at others.
Tam
tamborine lady
Active Member
That last post was for DHK
This is what I said.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Since you didn't answer my questions, I choose not to answer yours.
Matthew 7-6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
All you do is cast aspersions at others.
Tam
Answering a question with other sarcastic questions and aspersions doesn't do any good.
Practice what you "preach."
Now, "groanings which cannot be uttered," means what??
DHK
tamborine lady
Active Member
DHK,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Romans 8-26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cannot be uttered means exactly what it says; cannot be uttered.
The reason it can't be said is because WE do not know what to pray for. So the spirit makes intercession for us. The SPIRIT knows what to pray. The Spirit of God knows the words.
We have the spirit in us.
Intercession For us. He gives us the words to say in a prayer language.
At first, I agree, we do not know what to say, but God knows what we should pray. When we pray in our prayer language, we are praying the will of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is the way I see it. I know that if a person does not believe that tongues still exist today, they will not agree. Be that as it may, you may disagree if you wish.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, DHK, I have answered your question. So now how about answering mine!!
Working for Jesus,
Tam,
tamborine lady
Active Member
DHK, in case you forgot, these are my questions:
And now that you brought it up, WHO ARE YOU ? You spend so much time trying to straighten the rest of us out, that I'm surprised you have time to be a missionary to anybody.
What denomination are you? Have you heard of the Shepparding movement?? Does your wife call you "Lord"?
Are you in complete authority in your home? Do the women in your congregation have to follow the men without question, no matter what happens???
Working for Him,
Tam,
Emily
I appreciate your sincerety and pray that God will place you in His body as He wills. Wheither it is Baptist, Methodist, Charismatic, etc.
It is very important that you and your husband be in agreement about where God is placing you.
Be assured that I have prayed for you and I wish you God's best and pray that you may prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.
ATESTRING
I usually don't get involved with these theological "debates" because they usually go nowhere. Tambarine Lady, I must humbly and repsectfully disagree with your logic here. You are trying to make a connection from where "the Spirit knows what to pray" to "He gives us the words to say in a prayer lanugauge". I don't see this connection. Could you futher elaborate?Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Cannot be uttered means exactly what it says; cannot be uttered.
The reason it can't be said is because WE do not know what to pray for. So the spirit makes intercession for us. The SPIRIT knows what to pray. The Spirit of God knows the words.
We have the spirit in us.
Intercession For us. He gives us the words to say in a prayer language.
At first, I agree, we do not know what to say, but God knows what we should pray. When we pray in our prayer language, we are praying the will of God.
Tam,
Also your statement:
The reason it can't be said is because WE do not know what to pray for.
I don't see this connection. Doesn't this Srcipture say that it cannot be said (in the natural) because the Holy Spirit is speaking Himself? The cause of it (the words) not being able to be said is not our lack or words to pray but because the Holy Spirit is speaking in a manner that we cannot comprehend in the natural?
I'm not trying to attack you or bring you down...I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint.
Humbly in Christ,
ChurchBoy
You contradict yourself.
"Groanings which cannot be uttered" cannot be uttered, by you or any other Charismatic. These kind of assertions make one look foolish. The utterings are said and done by none other than the Holy Spirit. He is the only one who utters. There is nothing said about the Holy Spirit using a human voice to vocalize these utterings.
Secondly, you mention a prayer language. Can you demonstrate in Scripture where there is any such thing as a Biblical prayer language. This again is a modern day phenomena of the Charismatic movement, that is not in the Bible. (So is the barking of dogs, hissing of snakes, and roaring of lions--all supposedly of the Holy Spirit). Prayer is communication--meaningful communication. When I go to my father here on earth, who lives a few blocks away, and "communicate" or have a conversation with him, I am sure that he would be very grieved and perplexed if I started jabbering away in a string of nonsense syllables that didn't make any sense. What kind of communication is that? What benefit would there be for him, or for me. I believe that our Heavenly Father feels the same way. Prayer is communication. Just as we communicate with our earthly father, we communicate with our Heavenly Father--in a meaningful way. The speaking in tongues movement of today (known as gibberish) is totally meaningless, to the point that God can't understand it. In other words nonsense remains nonsense--whether in the sight of God or in the sight of man. You cannot make sense out of nonsense. If your tongues are not real languages then they aren't the gift of tongues in the first place, and it isn't the Holy Spirit that is helping you. The groaning you cannot hear. It is of God, the Holy Spirit, not of man. It cannot be uttered.
I only disagree on the basis of Scripture. If you could convince me through Scripture I might change my mind. The trouble that I see is that you are unwilling even to look at Scripture objectively.
Do you speak in an actual foreign language such as was spoken in Acts 2. Notice that the terms languages and tongues in that chapter are used interchangeably.
Do you have unbelieving Jews in your church. That is what the gift of tongues was for--a sign to the unbelieving Jew--an event that is already fulfilled in prophecy.
Do women speak in tongues in the church--a prohibition of Scripture in 1Cor.14.
These are only some of the very basic principles that are laid down, not even to mention the maximum number of people allowed to speak in tongues (3), the fact that they all have to have an interpreter, etc., etc.
As my profile says, I am a Baptist (an Independent Fundamental Baptist), working out of a church in Edmonton, Alberta.
I have never heard of the "Shepparding Movement."
I don't require my wife to call me Lord, but my wife is willing to follow me in whatever decision I make, where ever the Lord leads me to go. Instead of being a hindrance to the Lord's work, she is a help. And yes, she sets the example of a submissive wife.
Yes, I am in authority in my home. I can't outright speak for the homes of others. I don't control other peoples' lives. If they are right with God, then they will realize that God has put the husband at the head of the home, and the wife as his help-meet, submissive to his headship.
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
The last phrase is important. I will let you meditate on it.
DHK
tamborine lady
Active Member
DHK:
I have no need to "meditate" on the last scripture. I know exactly what it means and have no problem with it.
Church Boy: It's simple, we don't know what to pray until the spirit gives us the words.
Tam