Conditional Immortality of Souls

[AustinC]

The one who started the accusations apparently doesn’t like to be called out for his arrogance. He’s also scared to look at the Bible.


False. I know quite a few.


I’m not “in that space” at all. I am with Jesus. Where are you?

Jesus was a Jehovah's Witness?
No.
But annihilationism is not a Baptist theology.

 

[Alan Gross]

Where do folks on this thread fit into this definition of Baptists (of Salty's)

Baptists: What Makes a Baptist a Baptist? | Beliefs, polity, ministries, practices, organizations, and heritage of Baptists

 

[kyredneck]

No Baptist holds your annihilationism.

You must not know many Baptists. I've known several, like me, that question the idea of eternal torment.

 

[AustinC]

You must not know many Baptists. I've known several, like me, that question the idea of eternal torment.

To be fair, you also hold to the RCC view of justification by faith plus works as well as full preterism so I consider you an outlier in the Baptist community.

 

[kyredneck]

To be fair, you also hold to the RCC view of justification by faith plus works as well as full preterism so I consider you an outlier in the Baptist community.

'Outlier'. Thank you for the compliment! That's so out of the ordinary for you.

 

[AustinC]

'Outlier'. Thank you for the compliment! That's so out of the ordinary for you.

None of the 3 things you propose are orthodox positions in Baptist churches. Yes, you are an outlier.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Jesus was a Jehovah's Witness?

Of course not. Neither am I.

But annihilationism is not a Baptist theology.

It is a Christian theology, but not a Baptist distinctive. Unless you think that only Baptists are Christians, you are being irrational.

 

[Baptist Believer]

None of the 3 things you propose are orthodox positions in Baptist churches. Yes, you are an outlier.

I don't have enough context to know what the other two positions you are portraying as unorthodox, but conditional mortality is a minority position in my Baptist congregation. The pastor asked me to make a presentation on it in a church-wide theology class where we were hearing various points of view on the eternal destinies of the "saved" and "lost." It was well-received by the congregation and several mentioned that they eventually adopted the same understanding after they checked things out for themselves.

It has also been regularly presented favorably at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary under Paige Patterson by Dr. E. Earle Ellis, as Scholar In Residence at the pleasure of two seminary presidents, Ken Hemphill and Paige Patterson.

As for me, I came to the position against my wishes, simply by conforming my theology to the teaching of Jesus and the New Testament writers over the course of 20 years. It wasn't until I ended up having a conversation with Earle Ellis, a family friend, where I confessed my privately-held conclusion that conditional mortality was the biblical position, that I discovered it was actually a lot more widespread than I had known. I had been hoping he would lead me out of it by pointing out my error(s), but instead he affirmed my position and showed how it fit in to his own theological framework (Reformed). I do not hold to Reformed theology like he did, but that was essentially irrelevant to the issue at hand.

 

[Alan Gross]

Of course not. Neither am I.


It is a Christian theology, but not a Baptist distinctive. Unless you think that only Baptists are Christians, you are being irrational.

The important question is whether Baptists that deserve to spell Baptist with a Capitol 'B', worth wearing the name at all, have and will discipline members, for holding the 'Christian theology' of 'annihilationism', from their Congregation for Doctrinal Heresy.

I make that motion.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The important question is whether Baptists that deserve to spell Baptist with a Capitol 'B' worth wearing the name at all, have and will discipline members, for holding the 'Christian theology' of 'annihilationism', from their Congregation for Doctrinal Heresy.

Feel free to do that in your church. If the church actually looks into the matter and carefully examples the teaching of Jesus on the fate of the wicked, they may find themselves recognizing that it is a legitimate -- and more literal -- understanding of the New Testament that eliminates many theological problems.

I make that motion.

This is not a church.

 

[Alan Gross]

Feel free to do that in your church. If the church actually looks into the matter and carefully examples the teaching of Jesus on the fate of the wicked, they may find themselves recognizing that it is a legitimate -- and more literal -- understanding of the New Testament that eliminates many theological problems.


This is not a church.

Your "literal -- understanding of the New Testament that eliminates many theological problems"- is reminiscent of the mock-scientific work of the palaeontologist's who discover part of a tooth and reconstruct a skeleton from it, claiming that it is the real thing.

 

[kyredneck]

I don't have enough context to know what the other two positions you are portraying as unorthodox

My 'unorthodox' positions that get @AustinC's drawers in a twist and causes him to resort to such slanderous smears are rejecting the unscriptural Calvinist doctrine of justification by our faith ALONE, holding to Fulfilled Eschatology (in large part), and, believing in the very Calvinist teaching of The Right Of Private Judgement, i.e., being a Berean in my approach to scripture.

 

[AustinC]

My 'unorthodox' positions that get @AustinC's drawers in a twist and causes him to resort to such slanderous smears are rejecting the unscriptural Calvinist doctrine of justification by our faith ALONE, holding to Fulfilled Eschatology (in large part), and, believing in the very Calvinist teaching of The Right Of Private Judgement, i.e., being a Berean in my approach to scripture.

You're in the twist, not me. What I said was your 3 views are not held by Baptist denominations. Your view is an outlier in the Baptist community. I am not wrong.

 

[Alan Gross]

III. THE FINAL PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED

1. IT WILL BE ETERNAL Matt. 25:41; Rev. 14:11.

The plain meaning of these passages
is that the punishment of the wicked will be endless.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41

"Then shall he answer them, saying,
Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these,
ye did it not to me.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:45,46

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night,
who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:11

 

[Alan Gross]

2. THE FINAL PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED
WILL CONSIST OF CONSCIOUS SUFFERING

In the last Scripture given above we are told
that the wicked shall "have no rest day nor night."

That involves conscious suffering.

It is contended by some that the final punishment of the wicked
will consist only of annihilation.

The foregoing passage denies this.

Nevertheless, we shall examine the grounds of this contention.

They are:

(1) Mal. 4:1-3. This passage refers only
to the physical destruction of the wicked
just previous to the setting up of the millennial kingdom.

This passage, in substance,
is parallel with Isa. 24:17-22; 26:20, 21; 34:1, 2; 66:15, 16, 24;
Zech. 14:12-15; Matt. 25:41-46; 2 Pet. 3:7.

This destruction will take place in connection
with the battle of Armageddon.

But there is here no annihilation.

This is plain from Isa. 24:22 and 66:24.

"And they shall be gathered together,
as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison,
and after many days shall they be visited."

"And they shall go forth,
and look upon the carcasses of the men
that have transgressed against me:

for their worm shall not die,
neither shall their fire be quenched;

and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

(2) The description of this punishment as the "second death."

The "second death" corresponds
to the death of the race in Adam,
and not to physical death.

By this death man was unfitted for God's fellowship
and brought under the wrath of God,
but was not put beyond hope or the reach of God.

The "second death" brings the execution of the wrath of God
through "the continuation of spiritual death in another
and timeless existence" (E. G. Robinson);

a complete banishment from God's presence.

Thus the "second death" no more implies non-existence
than does the sinner's present state of spiritual death.

Mark 9:48, 49 shows clearly that the wicked in Gehenna
retain conscious existence.

"Salted with fire" may mean that the fire will have a preserving quality like salt.

(3) The declaration that unbelievers are to perish.
Luke 13:3; Acts 8:20; 1 Cor. 1:18.

But that this perishing does not denote annihilation
is proved by the fact that the Greek word in Acts 8:20
is the same word used to describe the perdition of the Beast
(Rev. 17:8),

and we find that the Beast is still in the lake of fire
a thousand years later (Rev. 20:10).

An annihilated being can never afterward be anywhere.

The Greek word in the other two passages
is the same word used for "lost" in Matt. 10:6;
Luke 15:24; 19:10; 2 Cor. 4.3,
where annihilation can not be the meaning.

(4) The representation
of the final punishment of the wicked as destruction.

Rom. 9:22; 2 Thess. 1:9. The Greek word in Rom. 9:22
is the same as the one for perdition in Rev. 17:8,
which does not express annihilation,
as we have just pointed out above.

And the Greek word in 2 Thess. 1:9
is the same as the one used
for the destruction of the carnal nature in 1 Cor. 5:5;

and we know that the carnal nature
is not annihilated in this life.

Finally, the fact that there are to be degrees of punishment,
because of which it will be "more tolerable"
for some than for others (Matt. 11:20-24),
shows that the final punishment of the sinner is not annihilation;

for in such a case all sinners would suffer the same penalty,
and it would be nonsense to speak of annihilation
as being more tolerable for some than for others.

(5) The scriptural representation of immortality
as something to be sought by man (Rom. 2:7),
revealed by the gospel (2 Tim. 1:10),

and attained only in the resurrection of the righteous
(1 Cor. 15:54, 55).

See the discussion of these passages
in the chapter on The Present State of the Dead.

3. THE FINAL PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED
WILL BE ACCORDING TO THEIR DESERT

Matt. 11:21-24; Luke 12:47, 48; Rom. 2:6, 12; Rev. 20:13.

These passages teach that there will be degrees of punishment
based on the light possessed by the individual
and according to his deeds.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The Harlot daughters haven't come far enough out of The Great Whore.

I will probably regret engaging with this strange comment, but who do you understand "The Great Whore" to be?

 

[AustinC]

I will probably regret engaging with this strange comment, but who do you understand "The Great Whore" to be?

Perhaps

Great Whore = Roman Catholic Church

Harlot Daughters = Churches and individuals who failed to fully Reform themselves as they retain humanistic philosophy promoted by Rome.

Perhaps

 

[Baptist Believer]

Perhaps

Great Whore = Roman Catholic Church

Harlot Daughters = Churches and individuals who failed to fully Reform themselves as they retain humanistic philosophy promoted by Rome.

That's a really harsh thing to say about people who hold to the belief in eternal conscious torment for the wicked. Those who hold to that viewpoint are merely holding onto the traditional Roman Catholic viewpoint. The Platonic philosophical assumption of human immortality entered the church through several key figures, most notably Thomas Aquinas. Baptists were one of the earliest groups in the Radical Reformation to set aside much of the Roman Catholic dogma and use scripture as their primary guide.

Those of us who hold to conditional mortality are not holding onto that Roman Catholic tradition, and we are much more tolerant of those who have differing views of the issue. It takes real study and commitment to scripture to overcome cultural and theological prejudices to examine the teachings of the New Testament evenhandedly. It is extremely uncharitable to label someone who holds to eternal conscious torment as a "Harlot daughter."

 

[Baptist Believer]

III. THE FINAL PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED

1. IT WILL BE ETERNAL Matt. 25:41; Rev. 14:11.

The plain meaning of these passages
is that the punishment of the wicked will be endless.

Actually, no.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41

The plain meaning of this is that the fire is everlasting. That says nothing about suffering.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:45,46

The punishment, like capital punishment, is eternal in its consequences. We can know this is the proper interpretation because of all of the rest of Jesus' teaching on the matter, as well as other portions of the New Testament.

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night,
who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:11

What is "forever and ever" is the smoke. This is a metaphor that explains the utter finality of their destruction. Just like the description in Isaiah 34:10 regarding the destruction of Edom:

It shall not be quenched night nor day;
the smoke thereof shall go up for ever:
 from generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it for ever and ever.​

If you want to claim that the image of Edom is literal, please demonstrate that no one travels through the site of Edom where smoke continues to rise to this day.

 

[JD731]

I don't have enough context to know what to "prove," but the conditional mortality of humankind is quite obvious in the scriptures if you are open to seeing it.

One of the first images in the scriptures is the "tree of life" found in the garden. The fruit of the tree of life literally sustains life (see Genesis 3:22). Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life (Genesis 3:24) and death reigns until now. The tree of life will return in God's restored world, and humankind will eat of it again (Genesis 22:2, 14), allowing us to be sustained forever.

Beyond the image of the tree of life, the New Testament is full of explicit statements that eternal life is given by Jesus as a consequence of salvation, not an inherent human quality. Here are just a few examples:

• "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms on account of My name, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life." (Matthew 19:29)
• “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
• "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)
• “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)
• "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40)
• "Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life." (John 6:47)
• "...and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28)
• "The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life." (John 12:25)
• "...just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life." (John 17:2)
• "For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
• "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." (1 Timothy 1:16)
• "This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:25)
• "Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him." (1 John 3:15)
• "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1 John 5:11)

This is the most confusing thread, beginning with the op, I have ever read on these forums, I think. I have read the whole thing up til this post and I cannot figure the argument out. Is the contention about whether an unsaved person has consciousness after his soul departs his body, which is the meaning of physical death?