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Conditional Immortality of Souls

37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Baptist Believer said:
The plain meaning of this is that the fire is everlasting. That says nothing about suffering.
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Revelation 14:10-11, ". . . shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ."
Mark 9:47-48, ". . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Baptist Believer said:
What is being discussed is the fate of the wicked. The Roman Catholic view that developed, based on Platonic philosophy, claims that human beings are immortal (or at least, eternally sustained by God) and will eventually end up in Heaven (or a restored earth) or in the lake of fire in eternal torment. In this view, God never eliminates evil.

Some of us maintain, based on the teachings of the New Testament -- especially the teachings of Jesus, that the fate of the wicked eventually ends in death and they are consumed in the lake of fire, where even death and Hades are destroyed (Revelation 20:14-15). In this view, God eliminates evil.

Those who hold to the Roman Catholic teaching of eternal conscious torment have barely participated in discussing scripture, which seems to be because they don't actually understand the position they are attacking and rejecting out of hand. Those of us who hold to conditional immortality have been trying to work through these issues with them, but we are not getting very far.
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Having read through this thread I have come to the conclusion that for me anyway the end of those that reject Christ is not a major issue. Whether they suffer for eternity or not is not something that I can control or determine. What I can do is reach out to all those that I can to present the gospel message in the hope that they will turn and trust in Christ Jesus for salvation and thus avoid whatever awaits those that reject Him.

This not to make light of what you are studying. I just prefer to focus on the separation of one from the love of God.
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AustinC said:
Harlot Daughters =
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5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev 17

The Jewish Foundation of Islam

Excerpts:

"“Unquestionably the first impression gained by a reader of the quran Koran is that Muhammad Mohammed had received the material of his new faith and practice mainly from the Jews of the Hijaz. On almost every page are encountered either episodes of Hebrew history, or familiar Jewish legends, or details of rabbinical law or usage, or arguments which say in effect that Islam is the faith of Abraham and Moses.....”

“These facts, if taken by themselves, would obviously indicate that the Arabian prophet's religious education had been thoroughly Jewish.....”

“'This quran quranic Koranic teaching is Gnostic,' or 'This is Manichaean'-in our dense ignorance of the type of Christianity that was known in the Hijaz, and especially, the type of Judaism that was actually present in Mekka in muhammad Mohammed's time, and from which we know him to have derived such a very large proportion of what we find in the quran Koran......”

“....there is no clear evidence that muhammad Mohammed had ever received instruction from a Christian teacher, while many facts testify emphatically to the contrary; and that, on the other hand, the evidence that he gained his Christian material either from Jews in Mekka, or from what was well known and handed about in the Arabian cities, is clear, consistent, and convincing....”

“...The fact of the Israelite city of Khaibar, "the richest city of the Hijaz," is one very significant item among many. Such a civilization is not produced in a short time. Native Arab tribes "converted" in the manner supposed would have been certain, we should imagine, to welcome and accept the prophet of their own number who promised them a truly Arabian continuation of Judaism adapted to their own special needs, while based squarely on the Hebrew scriptures. But the Jews of Mekka, Medina, and the rest of the Hijaz knew better, and would not yield an inch....I have thus far been speaking mainly of the great number of Arabs professing the Israelite faith, in muhammad Mohammed's time.....”

“....The quran Koran repeatedly speaks of "the children of Israel" as the most favored people on earth-up to the time of Islam; and in addressing them the prophet always reminds them that they know their scriptures.....”

“Far more important, however, is the testimony contained in the quran Koran. The Israelite tribes with their rabbis, their books, sacred and secular, their community of faith and action, and their living contact with the past, are there; they are no phantom. All through the quran Koran there is evidence of a Jewish culture, which muhammad Mohammed greatly admired, and of Jewish learning, which he very imperfectly assimilated...."
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
You do not believe God in Ezekiel 18:4. Or Jesus in Matthew 10:28. OrJames 5:20. That the soul of sinners will die.
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I believe God. I just don't read one sentence God wrote and turn it into an entire theology while ignoring the rest.
Have you studied the whole of Ezekiel to understand what God is saying to the Exiles living near the canal in Babylon? Have you studied the whole of Matthew to understand Jesus as King of Kings? Have you studied James letter to understand how then we ought to live?
You seem to think of the Bible as a long series of one liners that you can pull out like they were fortune cookies at your favorite Chinese restaurant.
3 sentences not even connected to your thesis does not make for annihilationism being taught in the Bible.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
You do not believe God in Ezekiel 18:4. Or Jesus in Matthew 10:28. OrJames 5:20. That the soul of sinners will die.
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Logic 101. If our Lord Jesus Christ really did substitute himself for sinners in his death on the cross and if he did actually suffer what sinners will suffer, who die in their sins, then the cross is the perfect object study of eternity without God. It does not teach annihilation. Death means separation. It does not mean anything else.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
3 sentences not even connected to your thesis does not make for annihilationism being taught in the Bible.
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Absolutely. The word of God doesn't in any way teach annihilationism. But does teach conditional Immortality of the soul.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Absolutely. The word of God doesn't in any way teach annihilationism. But does teach conditional Immortality of the soul.
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It doesn't, because...conditional immortality of the soul is a painted up version of annihilationism. Therefore the Bible does not teach it, no matter how much you dress it up.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
It doesn't, because...conditional immortality of the soul is a painted up version of annihilationism. Therefore the Bible does not teach it, no matter how much you dress it up.
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You refuse to hear. You prove to be unteachable.
". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ." ". . . destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." ". . . save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. . . ."
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Matthew 22:13, ". . . cast into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. . . ."
Mark 9:48, ". . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."
Matthew 10:28, ". . . to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ."
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
When Mrs Marprelate and I were quite new Christians, Mes M had a friend with whom she had shared a house in London while she trained to be a nurse. This lady had led quite an immoral life, but we were eager to share the Gospel with her and .encouraged her to find a church near where she lived.

So after a while we were concerned to hear that she was doing a Bible study with Jehovah's Witnesses, but we hoped that perhaps we could correct their errors when we next saw her.she told us that she wasn't prepared to give up her lifestyle, and at the End, she would just go off into oblivion which is what she had always expected to do. Nothiing we could say about eternal punishment would dissuade her. We have lost touch with her now, and maybe she has found Christ for real, but from her life shortly after this,I rather doubt it.

My point from this story is to say that Conditional Immortality allows people, as it were, to cock a snook against God. Hitler, after all his unspeakable wickedness, when his Third Reich came crashing down around him, could blow his brains out and avoid retribution from the allies and, as he thought, from God. But God is not mocked. 'There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
My point from this story is to say that Conditional Immortality allows people, as it were, to cock a snook against God.
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That is not the Biblical conditional immortality.
Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ."
Isaiah 66:24, ". . . the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; . . ."
What is left after both the soul and body die in the second death is called their worm which does not die.
Martin Marprelate said:
But God is not mocked. 'There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
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A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
That is not the Biblical conditional immortality.
Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ."
Isaiah 66:24, ". . . the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; . . ."
What is left after both the soul and body die in the second death is called their worm which does not die.
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Shall we take it that you do not believe a human has a spirit, only a body and soul?
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Shall we take it that you do not believe a human has a spirit, only a body and soul?
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The man's spirit is returned to God.
James 2:26, ". . . For as the body without the spirit is dead, . . ."
Ecclesiastes 12:7, ". . . Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. . . ."
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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from Gill:

but rather fear him,
which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.

This is a description of God, and of his power,
who is able to do that which men are not:

all that they can do, by divine permission, is to kill the body;
but he is able to "destroy",
that is, to torment and punish both body and soul "in hell",
in everlasting burnings;

for neither soul nor body will be annihilated;
though this he is able to do.

As the former clause expresses the immortality of the soul,
this supposes the resurrection of the body;

for how otherwise should it be destroyed,
or punished with the soul in hell?

Now this awful being that is able to hurl,
and will hurl all wicked and slothful, unfaithful and unprofitable,
cowardly and temporizing servants and ministers,
soul and body, into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
is to be feared and dreaded;

yea, indeed, he only is to be feared, and to be obeyed:
cruel and persecuting men are not to be feared at all;

God alone should be our fear and dread;

though the argument seems to be formed
from the lesser to the greater;

yet this, is the sense of the word "rather",
that God is to be feared, not chiefly and principally only, but solely;

and in some versions that word is left out, as in the Arabic,
and Ethiopic, and in Munster's Hebrew Gospel."
 
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